Brilliant, Catwank. Not only do I have the temerity to hold an opinion on a SUBJECT (what, so you deal in 'objective' truths, do you? Your going to have to be a lot tighter than that, mate), but holding that opinion makes me a - that's right, kids - a fascist!

Pissing on 'everyone else's parade' - because obviously, everybody agrees with you (and I notice you retreat to the position of 'we', rather than sticking your neck out and saying what you (singular) think. Safety in mumbers - back to the herd).

The dominant DiS paradigm - OK, what is the dominant DiS paradigm? I'd like to talk about that.

>>>>But then good journalism should be balanced >>>anyway I suppose. (Colin)

Agreed, in terms of NEWS journalism, but cultural criticism of the nature of DiS cannot be balanced, because it is impossible to hold a balanced opinion about a piece of art. The very act of writing about music is setting down an opinion. You should just say exactly what you think and if people disagree, great! That leads to debate, which is a good thing - and frowned upon in fascist and other totalitarian states, incidentally.

>>>'If the elitist indie snob-set were to use its energy in a positive fashion, ranting about a fantastic band whom they saw playing last night or the new record they just bought >>>that few have heard, >>>maybe the industry would slowly sway in their favour, but the negativity prevails. It seems to be a lot easier to knock music than to get excited about >>>it. To complain >>>>about the industry is to further the supposed destruction of our passion, music.' (Colin)

Two points here. a)I just don't see the problem with a bit of negativity! It's fun and funny to slag off bands that you think are shite. People do it to help identify who they are - that's like that and I HATE it - in the same way as people identify themselves with things that they like. There is nothing wrong with being bitchy. It's often hilarious. Anyway, the elitist indie snob set, whoever they are - kind of establish their identities by going to gigs, buying and advocating records, wearing badges, t-shrts, slogans, using themselves to promote things that they enjoy! The indie kids I know and love are always telling me about this band or that band who they like.

b)So what, the industry = music? Boy, are we fucked, then. Of course, a lot of people who start bands have the dream of signing a recording contract with a big label and making big money - but that's not what it's all about, is it? It's about getting up there and expressing yourself, your unique worldview, yr ability to turn thought into sound - what could be more special than that? it's magic, alchemy. Music was here before record labels. Music does not equal the industry. The industry looks to exploit our love of music for cash. The odd kid gets very rich for doing exactly what he wants to do, a lot more hearts get broken.

'Indie', in my subjective opinion (sorry about that - unlike some, far wiser people, I speak for myself, not the entire human race) is simply an abbreviation of 'independent'. As a concept, 'indie' was bought by the majors in the mid '90s and all of a sudden, loads of 'indie' kids were being handed recording contracts - mostly, their groups were ghastly. All that happened because of one band - Oasis - who made an LP that millions of people got into. The industry, great lumbering dinosaur that it is, reacted. "They want guitar bands with bad hair - we'll give them guitar bands with bad hair." Missing the obvious point that it was THAT band that people loved and you can't just substitute in any old generic replacement and say 'Will they do?' That's what the industry does. Some band comes along and creates something magical, they try to produce loads of clones of it, in an attempt to cash in on the zeitgeist. So yeah, maybe you're right. Indie has been rendered pretty meanngless by the industry, I think.

I perceive that about the music industry and I dislike it.

My hive mentality - wow! I wish. I have a hive mentality..... No, I speak for myself. I don't really care if other people disagree, but if they talk to me sensibly, they might just change my way of thinking. Which would be to do me a real favour. That's the good thing about posting on forums.

And I don't really give a flying fuck about Busted - so, they split up. It's hardly a victory for the 'elite indie crack anti-industry corps'. The industry already has their replacement lined up. They had a limited shelf-life - one of them's moved onto another 'band', with a slightly older sounding name, so he can keep his career going (If he writes some good music, he could have a long career. He has an opportunity to say anything he likes, theoretically).

Busted were just there to be bought by a certain group of kids and fashions change. The new generation, looking to establish itself, will obviously react against their older siblings and reject the product which they hoovered up. The Man is preparing the ultimate band for this new generation - and, until the lid got lifted by the NUT, they would have been repeating the trick that they pulled whilst marketing Busted and McFly - bribing 12 year old kids to go round the classroom recruiting new fans for them. That is despicable.

OK, yeah, let's talk about punk. No, I don't particularly like The Sex Pistols, although they're a fascinating part of English cultural history which I must look into further. I much prefer The Buzzcocks (Manchester's finest, IM(subjective)O) - Pete Shelley's a genius. I like The Buzzcocks and see them as an exemplary punk band because they were really themselves and they spoke up. They were noting to do with the silly, oi, thing which a lot of punk seems to be. They were brave enough to be emotional and sing about love in a really macho, testosterone filled arena. I see punk as just having the spirit, the audacity, if you like, to be yourself and be original - and never to compromise. And if that means shouting up against something you despise, then to have the guts to do that. If you say it well enough, people might agree with you. Then, you've made a positive out of a negative and effected change. Which is pretty radical.

Well, one drunken email getting back from the pub late turns into a thesis. That'll learn me! No, I've actually really enjoyed stating a position and thinking through what I said - I still think that DiS writers shouldn't bother concerning themselves with mass marketed merch and should be out there, championing the stuff that they love THAT ISN'T GETTING BLANKET COVERAGE ON EVERY NATIONWIDE TV CHANNEL AND RADIO PROGRAM AT PEAK TIMES. This was why I reacted strongly to there being a massive front page article on this particular band.

Absolutely fascinating that Catwank barely, barely, stops short of slagging me off personally because of the antithetical nature of MY cultural position. And I have to accept that I did overstep the mark in that way myself. I was drunk when I did the original email and would like to apologise to Colin for calling him a bellend. That was unacceptable and childish. But I've learned from it, so it wasn't such a bad thing, in the end.

So, you tried to shut me up by calling me a fascist and accusing me of being subjective - and to intimidate me by using big words - woo, paradigm! The effect of that was actually to get me thinking and help me to develop my ideas. So thanks very much. Free speech is great.

I would very much encourage a continuation of this debate and it'd be cool if you emailed back. Fee free to send me a personal note if you'd rather.

The sex pistols never allowed themselves to be the artistic pimps of pre pubescants, they were also part of a revolutionery movement that helped change modern music for ever. Not the same as busted at all really. Ah the youth of today a friendly push in the right direction and a guiding hand is all that is required.

Dear Colin,

I am glad that you enjoy the music of Busted and that it makes you smile, dance and sing. That is beautiful. Now explain to me how that makes YOU superior to ME.

I apologise for calling you a bellend. That was pretty childish. But for having the temerity to disagree with you, I have been called a fascist and characterised as inferior - you have adopted an incredibly patronising tone and misquoted me to suggest that I advocate censorship. I resent this.

I am glad that you contribute a lot of your time and energy to the upkeep of the site. It's a cool thing to do. If I didn't have to work full-time and if I lived in London, I'd love to do something similar. My contribution is to play my own music, write for DiS and Plan B as and when I can, put on gigs... So hey, I guess I do my bit too! I find it a bit odd that you come onto DiS to promote Busted, but if that's what floats yr boat, then so be it. I just hope that you can see my point - that Busted represent a reallly, really bad thing to me.

When you say "to complain about the industry is to further the supposed destruction of our passion, music.", I cannot help but react. That is so wrong. Please explain your position further, I would like to have the debate.

I wasn't saying that Busted should be censored - I was saying that an element of the marketing technique applied to Busted by the corporation who pull their strings was grossly immoral and should not be allowed to continue. I would like to thik that there could be some more discussion about this point too. Before we're old enough to shave, we're being bombarded with product, be it Busted, Barbie dolls, or Bob The Builder - this is the nature of the society we live in. Should we permit labels to recruit little Busted team leaders to go around plugging their products in schools? Surely not. I think that it's stunningly exploitative of the instinct of children to look up to their peers and to want to be a part of the social group. These are the means by which Busted product was so widely sold.

There's a wider debate to be had about marketing here. I made this point in my previous email. You chose to ignore it, so I assume that you are not interested in the devious means by which the product you defend is marketed.

I would like to think that this wipes the smug grin off your face and provokes some much needed thought about your position.

Ollie