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FOUR MORE YEARS

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by Fran_Zine
America -look forward to a very devalued dollar and more 'heroes' coming back in caskets from far away lands, adding to this list no doubt 'I-ran' and 'Nurth Kurria' - still at least dick and condy will keep the bogeymen away -anyone who didnt vote hang your heads in shame - thank heavens I'm English
Fran_Zine | 03 Nov '04, 09:36 | Send note | Report this | Reply

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

what do you mean, its the greatest democracy in the history of the world, unless of course your black, a woman, gay, or just part of the environment. You can't fight a recession with guns and ammo...

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

I'm no politics expert nor am i american. but i don't get why The Bush-Meister General is winning the election.
I was in the states last week and the general concensus was that Kerry, although not brilliant, was the man. That was in California, and it will vary across the country, but i still don't get it.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

The people with brains in America live in the coastal major population areas, California, Washington State, New York etc....

The rest, who unfortunately appear to be the majority, live in the big fat middle bit. The dumb ass rednecks who are anti-gay, anti-black, anti-anything the bible tells them is bad. And they are the people who vote for Bush, because he's on their illeterate dumb-as-fuck level of intelligence.

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And to hammer home my illiteracy point, there's a spelling mistake. I suck.

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It's so obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kerry's the man for the job. You just have to look at the voting patterns - Kerry wins the states with decent universities and major cities, and Bush wins the ones where they like to drag black people from the backs of their pick-up trucks.

Would it be offensive to suggest that only intelligent/educated people should be allowed to vote?

N.

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That's not Kerry, that's the Democrats in general. Traditionally the coasts have voted Dem and the vast tracts in the middle have voted Rep. Thing is, there's basically more Republicans than there are Democrats in the US, so it's always going to be an uphill struggle.

And yes, the candidates fought very different campaigns.

Kerry campaign: President Bush, on the subject of the 2002 Ratifcation Of Amenities Act, failed to - etc.

Bush campaign: Vote fer faggot commie nigger-lover Kerry and them A-rabs fundymennalists will be using your baby's intestines to hang their washing on by the end of the week. God bless America.

I wish I could say the result surprised me, but it didn't. Play to peoples' fear, bigotry, sense of moral superiority and greed and you'll always win.

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I think it's hard to call exactly what a second term is going to be like - on the one hand, Bush now actually has a mandate from the people and a far firmer grip on both houses, so it'd be easy to throw your hands up in the air and start screaming that this is armageddon, as he's free, even encouraged, to do what he really wants to now.

On the other hand, history tends to show us that second terms are generally quite peaceful and internally-focused, where the premier is more concerned about his place in the history books more than anything else.

On balance, though, yeah, this probably is the end of the world. Oh well.

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America's given bush the mandate to invade ANY country he wants, without any reason or international support?! Fuck, it is the end of the world, I'm moving to new zealand, sheep of mass destruction?

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I guess it would be foolish to hope that Blair will extract himself from Bush's arse anytime soon then.

Poor Tony - damned if he do, damned if he don't :(

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That's what pisses me off. Yes, Blair didn't have to follow Bush's lead into Iraq and all the other questionable things - but he had no choice, and the Tories would have stuck their collective snouts into that dirty trough with far more enthusiasm and speed than Blair, yet I strongly suspect the Tories will get in at the next election on the back of Iraq. Depressing really..

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Sure, but at the same time, Tony Blair is supposed to represent a left wing government, whereas you would expect the tories to be down with GWB, because its not against anything they have ever stood for. Blair must be the only 'left-wing' prime minister to whole heartedly support a capitalist republican government, without getting anything in return, and it will be interesting to see his position now he's not as necessary for Bush's plans. The G8 summit will be the first test and if there is no concession on Bush's part its hard to tell what direction we're heading for the next 4 years, its like some sort of political limbo.

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Well that would have been the case had it not been for Michael Howards faux pas' on agreeing with the war one minute and changing his mind the next. But you're quite right. Dirty opportunist scumbags the Tories. Always have been - always will be.

I think Blair will hang on but have his majority in the House greatly reduced. I forsee Howard going the way of Hague & IDS in spite of his star turn (ha) at the Tory conference.

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I think the lib dems will do pretty well next election.

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And if they keep impressing young voters, they'll be in charge before too long.

N.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Isn't democracy is a device used by rulers to get - those ruled, who otherwise would try to stop the rulers from doing just what they wanted, to shut up, (most of those who are ruled seem to aquiesce to the overiding principal that democracy should be sacrosanct....even more important than how that democracy treats others outside of it)......Consider....what if 70% of one democracy voted to opress 5% of that population for unfounded prejudice....is that worth preserving above all else.

Democracies are mostly a sham, a pale imitation of the true meaning, the Media basically finds peoples lowest common denominators and then the various parties will all try to pander to those.....how many people do you know who say....I'm not voting for this government they've done nothing for me.....how selfish is that, specially if your ok.

Democracy must reinvent itself or we are all Doomed.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Well i wouldn't vote for Bush but the democracy that some of you (lanky in particular) doesn't seem to be very democratic at all. You seem to want a democracy were only people who agree with you are allowed to vote.

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There should be a test, to see if you qualify for a vote (or to see what weight your vote carries) you have to be able to demonstrate that you understand arguments for and agianst issues, who decides whether you pass and qualify to vote.....why me of course.....there is no getting round it we will need to rely (to an extent) on wise women/men for somethings, not everything can rely on majority vote. (Similarly not all justice decisions can be made by pre proscribed law) but in that case the wise people must be held to account, not lynched on their first mistake (like a football manager).


Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Yes, Creakyknees!

I'm so glad that I'm not the only person who thinks like this. Especially with you being older and wiser and all...

N.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

I know. It's sad, and I don't want to believe that (and most of the time I don't). But it bugs me that a carefully considered political view can be cancelled out by someone who hasn't put any thought in at all. Someone who's just voted for the party their parents voted for, or the candidate who mentions god the most times or whatever. I know it's the nature of democracy, and that everybody has the right to vote and everything. And that's wonderful. And if they want to live their lives without putting any thought into it, that's their business. But when it comes to the government their thoughtlessness affects me too.

Particularly in America, where the future direction of a lot of world affairs can be dictated by whether or not the candidate supports gay marriages.

But having said that, it's still the best system there is. Just not infallible.

N.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

I heard someone else using this quote this morning, I'm not big on quote, but Churchill was always good for them.

"It has been said democracy is the worst form of goverment, except all the others"

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Absolutely, I didn't know Churchill said that but it confirms to me what a brilliant drunken old sod he was.

Democracy just needs improving.

I know this sounds like a political parties, spin doctoring idea, like 'the third way' but what we need is
'Democracy V2.0 (copyright Creakyknees)'
I may just launch it as a political party, except I may then seem just as preposterous as UKIP.

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don't do yourself down. UKIP are ridiculous.

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Actually I would like to qualify my ideas on voting discrimination (Lest I appear a bit like Hitler), I would not stipulate that people have to be above a certain intelligence, but I am concerned about how much integrity/consideration goes into peoples decisions.



Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Jesus do i look stupid in that post above.

I would like to announce that normally i can complete a cogent sentence.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

I think fullerovs the good old president, in disguise...

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I know how yer feeling creakyknees, but your solution seems to smack of the worst type of elitism. Ya can't hold an IQ test as a requirement to vote! And in fact we do have that sort of wizened old men thing: we call it the Supreme Court. OK, the American public fucked up again. Hey, let's get over it and pray Dubya doesn't get near any red buttons.

All I gotta say is: Keep the Faith, Ralph! Nader in '08!!!

Hey, check this. Yer own Tony made a funny. In the Commons he sez, "I'd like to congratulate the new president... (pause) Mr Karzai (sp?) of Afganistan." :-) Good one, Tone!

lanky and some of the rest of yous* also made me larf meself silly. Funny shite, guys and gals!

*I'm gonna steal some of those lines to berate the gloating Bushites.

Before I allow myself to get back to our regularly scheduled program, I just want to say how fucking stupid Californians are. Originally as a backlash against a particular heinous crime we passed the 3 strikes and yer out law. Fine. Put a gun to someone's held 3 times and adios motherfucker! But what it really was 2 serious felonies and an "anything". Meaning some cat could steal a bicycle outta an opened garage twice, and then for stealing a pack of gum from 7-11 be looking at 25 to life in prison. How the fuck does that make any sense? Now Cali had a proposition that sought to amend that injustice... and it looked like an easy winner until Arnold weighed in against it in the 11th hour. It just fucking pisses me off when people allow someone else/the govt do their thinking for them!!!!

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i just think it's funny how the people that founded america were the puritans... the one's who didnt like all the holidays, and preching and stuff... and yet bush says ' believe in god, and i pray every day' etc, and he gats all the votes... good one!

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2 bikes and a pack of gum ?. Give them the fuggin chair, it's the only language that type understands.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Unfortunately it seems W won fair and square this time. Which completely backs up my theory that the majority of Americans - New Yorkers, LA, Chicago and Boston excluded - are idiots.

However. Bush made so many blunders etc. last time that it is possible he will learn from his mistakes and this term will be peaceful. I'm trying to find a happy medium for this dark day.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

any Nation that can put men on the moon is not a nation of idiots.

You may not like Bush, i am neutral on the subject, but surely you ca find a better explanation than almost all Americans are idiots.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Most of the people who voted in this election didn't put men on the moon. And I can't be certain, but I daresay a fair amount of the people that put men on the moon are no longer in a position to vote in elections.

Besides, those men were put on the moon for idiotic reasons.

N.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

The last guy was only on about 30 years ago but thats beside the point.

The point is that it is a very lazy viewpoint to say that the only reason that Bush was re-elected was that Americans are idiots, some are but thats the same for all countries. The true reason is that for whatever reason the U.S has become a far more conservative place the last 20 years. I don't know why this is. Anyone else?

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

'any Nation that can put men on the moon is not a nation of idiots.'

No, it's just a very rich nation - and much of America's space program was powered by ex-Nazi rocket scientists anyway. Werner von Braun wasn't born in San Diego last time I looked.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

i'm really happy that bush won in that it proves how fucking stupid most americans are and it pisses off people who think that being anti-bush and all left-wing, is some sort of new fashion statement.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

so some body tell me? are there any good polititions in the states? if you cant win against BUSH at THAT STATE than who do you expect to win against kerry? proves what a crap one he is... well to be honest.. i dont really think it affects me but omg.... somebody save the poor little country .. whoever it is..

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Would it have been worse If Kerry had won more votes but Bush got to be President again (like last time?




On the question of putting a man on the moon.....Wasn't the american rocketry helped enormously by ex Nazi scientists? Wasn't the US breaking of the sound barrier Bell X1, aided by the British sharing all their research on high speed jets, gained by British test pilots, yet the US did not return the favour.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Havn't all scientists been helped by other Scientist's?
hardly any research is done in a vacuum, they may well have been helped but the point is that they actually did it.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS


There was a great deal of conversation last night on CNN about ‘American morality’ and how Kerry and the Democrats failed to appeal to this moral demographic. Well... it’s pretty damn simple. The majority was made up of Republican conservatives with this so-called American morality engrained in them. It’s not an American morality, it’s a conservative, generally Christian, morality and the GOP appeals perfectly. With this moralism lurking about the Democrats end up in a hole: on one hand, you want to be a true alternative and appeal to factions that aren’t this wonderful moral majority. On the other hand, if you don’t appeal to this majority through your stance on abortion especially, you have no chance of winning. If you don’t appeal to the majority of voters then you won’t win and this in the problem. Every two-bit analyst has been out trying to see where the Democrats go now and they’re facing an uphill battle. They did pull out more voters from the fold, the youth vote increased in terms of numbers but stayed at the same level in terms of percentage (17%). For every extra person Kerry pulled in, Bush added almost two. The backroom GOP staff led by Karl Rove did an amazing job in galvanizing their voters. There’s many accusations here that Bush appeals to nobody other than white rednecks and the lack of democracy here. Well, look at the figures… the split in female voting was slight in favour of Kerry but Bush made gains on the 2000 performance. Voting in immigrant heavy areas like New Mexico was in favour of Bush. Florida with its high percentage of Cuban immigrants/Cuban-Americans went with Bush. A voter turnout of nearly 120 million people (just under 60%) is also impressive given recent Western population voting figures in their respective countries and is favourable to both candidates, it shows that both Kerry and Bush got people off their asses and into the voting areas. Definitely reconsider the idea that only university educated swine voted Kerry. The current CNN exit poll suggests that college graduates were split with 49% voting for each candidate. It’s only when you get to post-graduate level that Kerry appealed to an educated majority.

In the end it’s pretty simple. If you’re trying to sell manure and there’s way more people in your country who want manure than those who don’t want manure, you’re only selling to one faction. When that faction is the majority you’re on a winning ticket.

Bush being re-elected coincided with Democrat losses and Republican gains in both the Senate and the House of Representatives. This is far more worrying than a straight Bush victory as it strengthens the power he can wield in both departments. Add in to the anticipated Supreme Court changes and there’s a reasonable case in saying that Bush is strengthening the GOP hold ion for the 2008 election when he’ll be lying down for his successor.

From Blair’s position, he should be anxious. The Aussie and US elections were meant to be barometers of the Iraq issue affected voters. This definitely will affect Blair and much of his success/failure will be judged on the success of the Iraq voting currently scheduled for January. I’d also say that home issues in the UK will affect Blair far more than they affected both Howard or Bush. There’s a lot of pissed off people in the UK and to appease these persons, he really will have to pull something out of the bag.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

couldn't agree more about the Rove point - the way he got the "gay marriage" referendum on voting slips, thus flushing all the indignant (/ignorant??) tambourine (/gun??) toting right wing conservatives out to vote was either

1) Unbelievably cynical ...or
2) Political genius

depending on your views (I'm with #1 personally)

Still, the thing with democracy is that people get the government they deserve. So all those Alaskans who voted overwhelmingly for Bush can go cry somewhere else when their state either melts or gets turned into a giant slag heap in the next 4 years!!

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS


Well, yes and no. Rove is a genius whatever anyone says, there's nothing cynical about getting the fag marriage rights going (and quibble people ye not, fag is an acceptable term here in gay ol' Toronto). It got the conservatives out in their voting droves and booked George another four years of being a staple ingredient for bad stand-up comics everywhere. Political genius? Certainly, as genius as the Democrats have been stupid in their infighting going way back before Iraq was an issue with Daschle and Pelosi arguing like tarts.

Democracy is great to an extent. The Alaskans will see their state raped and pillaged. Sadly certain nations affected by American won't have and will never have a voting chance. It's only democratic when you're acting on the people and the nation who elected you.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

no fullerov, creakyknees definitely has a point there.

have you ever heard of the german nazi wernher von braun? von braun, who was member of both the nsdap and the ss, developed the infamous a4/v2 rockets for the nazi regime. the v2 was produced in a concentration camp (mittelbau-dora). as a result of the horrible working conditions, 10000-20000 people died. that's even more than the estimated 7000-10000 victims that were killed by the v2 in england, belgium, netherlands and france.

guess what happened to von braun after ww2? was he rightfully punished as a war criminal at the nuremberg trials? nope. shortly after the war, von braun and about 1000 other nazi scientists were secretely transferred to the us (known as the operation overcast/paperclip). from then on, von braun and the others worked for the us government.

yada, yada, yada. to cut it short, von braun continued to be one of the leading rocket technology scientists and later led a team that developed the saturn rockets (-> apollo program -> moon landing).

furthermore, everything i just wrote is completely irrelevant. the moon landing is not an achievement of the united states or any other nation. it's the achievement of a group of individuals and humanity in general. it doesn't matter where those individuals came from. the united states merely had the money and political power to employ those individuals.

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Well of course you are right about the transferance of knowledge, but to take your viewpoint you would have to say that although the manhatten project had physicists etc of many nationalites , it was the US that actually dropped Little Boy and Fat Man.

I dont think that one action indicates the competancy of a nation, lets face it if the Soviets had
the same resources, do we doubt that they would have acheived this.
Again one, could have argued, that the Soviets put a man in Space....."Any country that could put a man into space...etc etc etc"

Sorry but I have to disagree with you now that we are rivals.

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

That last post was intended as a reply to fullerov.

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When the Americans found out about our jet research, they said they were working on a similar project and suggested pooling resources. We gave them all our info and never heard back from them.

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And if yer interested in a great investment, lemme tell ya about this super bridge we've got in Brooklyn....

Re: FOUR MORE YEARS

Can I interest you in a timeshare project I'm representing ?