This isn't a personal attack on Dove or anyone, but I feel strongly about this, hence adding a reply to the thread and re-posting.
i.e. metabolism, generally just eating too much, I think people may be missing a point here.
Do you drink too much?
Do you smoke too much?
Do you take drugs in a non-social situation?
Do you rant on the phone too much?
Do you obsess over internet boards? Perhaps even people you've never met, but fancy?
Do you have any obsessive factors to your personality that you'd admit to on here?
Eating disorders can be mentally related too, and as much as you may find 'fatties' annoying, I think it's a bit unfair to judge them all as being stupid, or unable to control their love of pie-munching.
One of my best friends is a size 32. Trust me, I wouldn't have wanted to be in her shoes when we saw the Cure at the Royal Albert Hall and she freaked out because she couldn't fit in the seat, so we had to get one without arms. Nor when she stayed at my place, and the bath sunk and water started streaming through the ceiling as a result. She doesn't CHOOSE to be like this. She's had an awful lot of shit in life and is probably dealing with a form of pretty major depression as a consequence. She was an average size ten or fifteen years ago. This is how she deals with her shit in life – we all have our foibles, it’s just unfortunate that it’s externally obvious for larger people. ALSO, she is one of the most intelligent people I know. Come to think of it, THE most intelligent person I know is a 27 year old, 18.5 stone man. So, exactly where the ‘fat equals stupid’ theory comes from, is a little baffling to me.
I agree that it’s pretty disgusting when you see a young kid who is grossly overweight eating a McDonald’s or whatever – and I wish it weren’t so rife – but do you know the personal circumstances of that child? Perhaps he has a mother who is a single parent, who does three jobs to feed her kids, is knackered most of the time, and doesn’t have the energy to cook a healthy meal from scratch when she gets home. Bollocks to Jamie Oliver’s healthy meals scenario; that’s all very fair and well if you have the time and the money to be able to go to such lengths to cook a healthy meal for the same cost as turkey twisters and chips – but people in deprived situations often don’t.
I guess my point is – unless you’ve been in their shoes – don’t be so quick to judge, please.
well played for taking the time to write all that
good points. there needs to be a boundary to tolerant relativism, but it probably can be set a bit further out than 'haha fat people LOLZ'
but glad it wasn't an attack on dove. was a good issue to bring up for debate.
er
you already posted this, in the right thread
...
"I feel strongly about this, hence adding a reply to the thread and re-posting."
yeah but
why
...
"I feel strongly about this"
yeah but
why
Why? Because
people don't tend to read old threads as much as new
and because once a thread gets beyond a certain length newer replies, even good ones will be lost.
And that thread may well have descended into comedy making it even less likely the more discursive elements of DiS would pop in to see what the new post was about and read it.
"i feel strongly about this"
yeah but
why
Why? Because
people don't tend to read old threads as much as new
and because once a thread gets beyond a certain length newer replies, even good ones will be lost.
And that thread may well have descended into comedy making it even less likely the more discursive elements of DiS would pop in to see what the new post was about and read it.
...
"I feel strongly about this."
yeah but
why
"One of my best friends is a size 32"
okay
i'm not fatist by the way i'm just threadist
Nah
Mirri's best mate is fattest
oooo harsh
"i feel strongly about piss"
wrong thread
I love you, Mirri
Well written and thought out. And entirely true.
x
Whilst I completely agree with everything you've said
You could take out the word 'fat' and be referring to any prejudice. We all have prejudices that we are unable to justify. I'm fully aware that finding somebody annoying because of their appearance is wrong, but every single one of us on here is guilty of it. Every single one
People judge people when they shouldn't. It's not nice, but it's a fat of life
*fact
you did that intentionally though right?
I actually didn't!
Wow, I must really hate fat people
no, speal for yourself Dove from below
not everyone is bigoted and small minded
Speal for myself?
Speal for myself? Speal? Speal for myself?
Hello marlowx
Oh, and go fuck yourself, fat man
you're a cock.
bf
the other day I was in sainsburys, and I found a 'microwave burger'...it was £1.50, as much as FOUR individual burgers, without the bun in the same packet.
Repulsed by this attack upon the nations finances and health, I picked it up and showed it to my girlfriend, and said "what the CUNT is this, what kind of moron would eat this shit??", just as a woman elbowed me out of the way to shovel four into her trolley.
someone who has a microwave and not a proper oven
you racist fuck
a haemophiliac
who doesn't want to risk accidentally cutting themselves when slicing the bun open.
Maybe she was going to give them to the poor
You insensitive BASTARD!
bun request
I'm sorry about your friend's condition but I honestly think that some people are instinctively disgusted by overweight people as part of their evolutionary programming in the same way that they are affected by people with bad skin problems or extreme body odour
of course there is an enormous problem with what modern society describes as 'fat' or the way in which people (particularly but not exclusively women) perceive themselves in relation to society's values
if you're defending a friend's lack of control over her comfort eating as a result of her having had an extremely difficult ten or 15 years then fair enough (ie 'she doesn't CHOOSE to be like this') and social and economic circumstance obviously play defining roles in the ability to deal with these or any other problems
HOWEVER, this can be said of junkies, criminals, violent and abusive people and other categories - are you suggesting that the general public should not criticise these groups either because they 'haven't been in their shoes'?
Or are you suggesting that in criticising fat people one is merely contributing to their low self-esteem and thus encouraging them to increase their comfort-eating ?
This is not meant as glib or as an attack on either you or your friend, I'm just curious as to whether you apply this rationale to all kinds of ostracised types or only the ones you've had close personal acquiantance with...
But
if you met someone, which would you prefer:
1) They nicked your stuff to fund their drug habit
2) They punched you in the face for no readon
3) They were fat.
that isn't my point
we're not talking about meeting people - we're talking about judging people we don't know verses knowing people we don't think should be judged
I don't
think that comparing junkies, criminals, violent and abusive people with overweight people is particularly helpful.
As far as addictions are concerned, I would hope that addicts (whether to alcohol, drugs, food or anything else) were treated in a manner that took their personal circumstances into account. I can honestly say that I don't hate all drug users/alcoholics etc.
It's when anti-social behaviour enters the equation that I start hating.
well yes
I'm being deliberately provocative to get to the underlying issue
which is that our evolutionary programming and our social programming come in to conflict on a daily basis - having friends with personal issues helps us overcome our prejudices
the paradox is that our prejudices keep us from having such personal contact with those we are prejudiced against
Well people with prejudices
need to forget about them!
It's not hard. You just over-ride the prejudice by thinking "actually, I know nothing about this person".
Of course we all have prejudices, but surely we should try to overcome them rather than resigning ourselves to their being ingrained in us!
exactly
2
at least that's a one-off
Nice one Mirri.
I agree. To generalise and make blanket accusations about a group of people is always foolish.
Us chub lovers should have been around
during Nurenburg. they needed rational people.
I really like you Bobby
i like bobby too
but i'm scared that he thinks i'm fatist
i'm not
only cos you're fat.
hahahaha
it's true
(please can someone now say "you're not fat" to make me not cut open my stomach and push out my insides now)
you're not fat
I haven't actually seen a picture of your body
only your face but i made a judgement from that that it was ok to say you're fat because you're not.
you're not fat?
thanks
haha
that's ok
fatty
Fair enough Anschul
But - I don't 'judge' ANY crack addicts, criminals or other groups, again, simply because I haven't been in their shoes and I don't know their circumstances. To do so would be grossly unfair. That’s not to say I wouldn’t be extremely fucked off if I were mugged by an addict; but I wouldn’t simply think ‘you thieving cunt’ – I’d think a little deeper than that. I had a reasonable childhood, don't have any health problems, and have a pretty stable head most of the time. However, there's an awful lot of people who haven't been as 'privileged' as me in life; and therefore I don't judge them. Nobody likes to look at someone with acne, but some people can't stop it, no matter what they do to get rid of it. I don't look at them and think 'for fuck's sake, get some oyx(whatever)', I think 'you poor sod, I bet you've done everything possible to overcome that'.
Of course I feel strongly about it because of my friend. Wouldn’t you? But no, I don’t just apply this theory to those I’ve had personal acquaintances with. Absolutely not. Perhaps that makes me stupid or naive - I don't think so. More empathetic/understanding.
So, you can keep your buns.
Right on!
I commend your attitude
not that you'd want or need my commendation of course
Like I said to bobbyg up there^ I was being a bit deliberately provocative
but there's a reason we don't like to look at people with hideous acne and that's because there's an evolutionary advantage in it looking hideous - it's saying 'stay away from me there's something wrong with my health'
of course, we live in the prescription age so our response is in lag with the actual dangers concerned
but this is the root of all prejudice
prejudice is an interesting but difficult subject to discuss
what to do about it is another matter
If you see a poor struggling single mum at the till in tesco with her three screaming kids start beating them for picking up the sweets by the counter do you feel sympathy for her or for her kids?
do you feel pity for all of them?
do you feel angry at Mr Cadbury and Mr Tesco and their tempting treats?
and what the hell do you do about it anyway?
just a thought
I really don't see the problem
To suggest a slippery slope argument when we are talking about human beings and their right to be seen as such seems a little far-fetched.
As I said earlier, there's no doubt that prejudice is part of human nature, but we should fight it as best we can. I see no reason to see prejudice as insurmountable on an individual level.
yeah but
understanding people's prejudices is the same as understanding their circumstance isn't it?
so shouldn't we fight people's self-destructiveness or over-eating or addictions, or bulimia or whatever in the same way we fight prejudice rather than giving them the 'they've had a tough life, leave them alone'
?
or should we just ignore it as none of our business?
...
“but there's a reason we don't like to look at people with hideous acne and that's because there's an evolutionary advantage in it looking hideous - it's saying 'stay away from me there's something wrong with my health'”
With the evolution of man and medicine, we also know, in my opinion, too much. Would you agree that it’s right to try to merge a human’s cells with that of an animal, for example? Do you think humankind REALLY needs to know so much about Mars? It’s fucking with nature, and nature has always taught us that if you fuck with her, she’ll fuck right back, twice as hard. In bygone days, being overweight was a sign of good health and wealth. Now science proves us ‘wrong’, and it suddenly becomes socially unacceptable within a few decades.
In a few hundred years time, when scientists continue to delve deeply, there will be some kind of ‘condition’ that each and every one of suffers from – because if it doesn’t exist, you can be sure the fuckers will invent it to get our dollar. And that too will form groups of people who think it’s socially unacceptable because The Sun says so. Okay, perhaps that’s a bit patronising, but you get the general gist?
“If you see a poor struggling single mum at the till in tesco with her three screaming kids start beating them for picking up the sweets by the counter do you feel sympathy for her or for her kids? do you feel pity for all of them?”
Yes, I’d feel some kind of pity for them all.
“do you feel angry at Mr Cadbury and Mr Tesco and their tempting treats?”
No, they’re another part of evolution. I wouldn’t want to be hunter-gathering for food like our ancestors, so I like the convenience. However, I don’t appreciate their power over our government – but that’s a different matter entirely.
“and what the hell do you do about it anyway?”
<Shrugs> - beats me, I’m not Einstein.
"or should we just ignore it as none of our business?"
We can, but if you're in a position to help, it doesn't hurt, does it?
...
"here's a reason we don't like to look at people with hideous acne and that's because there's an evolutionary advantage in it looking hideous - it's saying 'stay away from me there's something wrong with my health"
does it? what does acne suggest is wrong with your health?
nothing at all, that is shit
I wasn't being specific about acne
or wasn't intending too at least - I was just drawing a parallel to the find that what we find grotesque or scary is usually for good reason ie it's either full of bacteria or is going to do us harm
the fact* that
i have a small spot just below my mouth
but rest assured, it poses you no threat :p
...
"In bygone days, being overweight was a sign of good health"
being a health weight was a sign of good health. nothing has really changed.
Rubens
depicted rather overweight people.
And they were not critical depictions. Aspirational, in fact.
http://www2.unil.ch/spul/allez_savoir/as27/images/3_bacchus_rubens.jpg
so what?
that has nothing to do with 'good health'. currently we have unhealthily thin people picture aspirationally, surely?
But...
...as a society, we regard skinny people as healthy and fat people as unhealthy.
The division between rich and poor was so expansive in Rubens' time that being overweight would have been widely regarded as extremely healthy.
...
"we regard skinny people as healthy and fat people as unhealthy"
i'd say we regard extreme examples of both as unhealthy... surely Rubens' paintings were just a contemporary version of an anorexic catwalk model?
But come on...
Do you really think people now would see a catwalk model as being unhealthy as the chap in the Rubens??
We know that both are unhealthy, but being fat has a much worse stigma than being thin. Yet in Rubens' time, being fat was seen as a perfectly healthy state. I guess I'm looking at societal trends...
Anyway I think we both know what we're on about by now... :)
But look at what people were eating in Rubens' time
I don't know how healthy or otherwise it might have been, but it wasn't McDonalds and shit processed food stuffed with hydrogenated fats.
Being fat previously told people you had enough to eat [or too much]. Fat equalled luxury. Now, being fat increasingly conveys the message, accurately or otherwise, that what you eat is probably doing you harm, and that you lack either the money or the time to afford better - as demonstrated in this thread.
People can very easily tackle their own prejudices.
Often, people's circumstances are beyond their control (even if they made stupid mistakes in the past).
Understanding the roots of prejudice is one thing. Accepting/condoning prejudice is another.
You're not fatist
the woman who broke the bath is!
I hope someone already made this joke in the fat people thread.
I put it in the wrong place
This is why edit functions aren't a bad thing.
Or it's why I should kill myself.
cDonald's
The only thing cDonald's saves is time. Moneywise it is dashed expensive.
is it?
isn't it, like, a quid for a burger?
it is a quid for a burger that you need 2, if not 3, of to fill you up
not in my experience
at least 2 quid for a filet o' fish that whilst it is tasty in the extreme and has that lovely lumpy sauce on it, leaves you needing about 5 more.
meals cost MONEH.
this is all very
sensible stuff and I feel for your friend, although you're not really clear about what her situation is. does she have mental health problems that have manifested themselves in overeating and that is why she is much larger than she was a few years ago? that's pretty intrusive, so you can ignore it if you want.
but you do make the error of trying to paint all overweight people as victims when clearly that is not the case. do you think most overweight people would be unable to change, if they wanted to?
I'm discounting people those who have problems with, say, the thyroid gland or those who have to take certain antipsychotic drugs or those with unusual genetic disorders etc.