Why not?
I used to think this way UNTIL I actually started paying for downloads.
These days I'm getting albums 100% legally via download at about £2 a throw and I've realised that if I spend £10 on a cd then I'm doing exactly that, paying a tenner purely for a plastic disc.
I've realised, in short, that paying for downloads is the better way to buy music because then all you're paying for is the music. I get about six albums a month for the price of one and a half albums before. Seeing as I used to buy at least an album a week I'm basically saving £25 a month and getting more music at the end of it.
So what's the huge attraction of owning a plastic disc? I can still see it somewhat. There's a completist geek in me which means I will certainly buy the new Fiery Furnaces album on cd despite having had the music on mp3 for a good few months.
I've just forked out for Radiohead's 'Disc Box' and I'll definitely keep buying Constellation Records things on cd because the packaging is so beautiful. So I can definitely see the attraction of packaging when it's genuinely nice. But is most cd packaging so nice that you're really glad to own it?
Plus the other thing is that I don't listen to cds. All my music is on my computer and that's where I listen to it. So there have been occasions where I've downloaded an album before it came out, subsequently bought the cd for ethical/completist reasons and literally NEVER listened to the disc. It just goes on the shelf and remains unplayed.
So basically I don't think there are any very good reasons for 'never' paying for downloads. Especially if it's the only way to get something. If your favourite band did a download only single would you refuse to pay for it?
Does music only have a monetary value if they put it on a plastic disc? if so why?
My reasons
I like to display my cd and vinyl in my house. I like artwork.
Also it is about there being a physical thing. At least then I feel like i'm buying something that has had some sort of production cost. Otherwise you're paying the record company for something that costs them nothing to reproduce as many times as they want once they've paid overheads. That just seems bizarre to me. You're paying, quite literally, for invisible data. That can be lost, in a hard drive crash or an mp3 player failure for example.
and yes
i refuse to pay for download only things. this might cause a problem in the future. or not. cos i am naughty.
I'm very wary of hard drive crashes
so don't like to have my record collection in that format..
There's also all of the licensing and format bollocks.
Plus I prefer to listen to music on my hi-fi rather than computer.
with eMusic
you can re-download anything you've bought an unlimited number of times. So if your computer dies you can re-download it.
obviously it's not as secure as having a hard copy on cd. or as backing up your music collection. but it's a nice feature of the site.
Where do you download from?
Because if you are getting albums for around £2, it can't be legit.
And all the same usual reasons; I want to physically own something, and I've had enough problems with technology to not be happy having my music stored solely on a piece of it.
eMusic
it's £14.99 a month for 75 mp3s which works out to roughly £2 per album on average.
it's 100% legit. my own music's on there too.
Ah I see
Thought it might be one of those wonderful Russian websites. The physical product is still for me but each to their own I suppose...
I get 90 for that much
where?
all my cd's
are in a box in my dads loft after I digitalised them. I don't give a shit about displaying them as they took up an entire wall of my spare room and I needed the space badly.
Paying for downloads is the obvious choice as cds are effectively worthless, unlike vinyl which feels like it has a value.
But yes, I do miss artwork a little bit.
lol
why does vinyl have a value that CDs don't?
you can buy
blank cd's for tuppance ha'penny so they feel worthless to me. Vinyl is a finnished product and also it smells alot better.
oh my
indie kids, eh?
indeedy!
Put all your CDs on eBay then.
Get a nice bit of coin there.
it's more to do with convenience
i can't take a download to my friend's house. i can't play a download in my friend's car. i can't encode a download in two different bitrates, one to go on my mp3 player and one to use at home.
i also cling to the idea that when you buy a "plastic disc", you're not just buying music, you're buying an album - a complete package.
incidentally, one of my current favourite artists (adam gnade) has done a download-only EP and i've never bought it. i'm not sure i will..
i can see the attraction
of choosing to buy a cd rather than a download. but refusing to buy music you'd love because you won't get it on a plastic disc seems to me to be cutting off yr nose to spite yr face. doesn't it?
a little bit
i guess. but i look at it as a matter of choice - if it was only available on vinyl i probably wouldn't buy it either, so i don't see why this is any different.
plus, it's 5 tracks @ 79p each on 7Digital and I'm not paying that for something that basically doesn't exist. there are many, many other things i could just spend the money on instead really.
"basically doesn't exist"
so you don't feel that you're paying for the actual music in any way?
well
i guess i am paying for the music, but i don't really think i'm paying for a "record". which is the key difference for me..
well fair enough
but adam gnade's presumably released that record as a download cos he can't afford to get cds/vinyl done, rather than just to spite his loyal fans.
If you (and all his other fans) buy the music you're supporting him enough so maybe his next release can once again be on a cd?
it's only £3.95 at the end of the day, which isn't a bad price for 5 songs you'll presumably really like.
well
i gather it was a label choice rather than his own. but at the end of the day i'm a essentially a consumer and part of that entails voting with my feet when i don't like something.
interestingly his next release was meant to be vinyl only but the label also sorted out a handmade 2 CDR set (ltd to 200 i think) of it that i did buy and is rather lovely.
really, in a time when CDRs are so cheap and handmaking / small runs have never been easier, i don't really see any reason for not doing such a run if the demand is going to be low.
bf
even 200 seven inches isn't exactly gonna break the bank.
Hand of glory is well on its way to breaking even on the Outdoor Types seven we've done
um
"i can't take a download to my friend's house."
Uhhh, yes you can. You have an ipod, right? You cold even email it to their house.
"i can't play a download in my friend's car."
The last few times I've been in someone's car, they have been playing off their ipod through the car speakers. Get with the programme!
"i can't encode a download in two different bitrates, one to go on my mp3 player and one to use at home."
Of course you can. iTunes does this.
Where are
you getting album downloads for £2 a time? May have to investigete this
Put simply, I don't really
feel like I own it if I only have it as an mp3. I don't listen to music through my computer.
I like owning stuff. It's the hoarder in me.
indeed. also passing mp3s onto
your children/friends/family isn't quite the same as handing them an lp or cd is it?
also
making a tape or cd for a fancied member of the opposite sex and handing it to them is clearly more romantic than saying 'plug in your ipod and i'll transfer some mp3s.', although ironically that sounds more sexy.
well having an mp3 collection
doesn't preclude you from maxing someone a mix cd.
no
but the creation process is far more enjoyable when you have all your stuff set out and you get to go through it all
Ha.
Not for me. I much prefer having it eaisly and automatically alphebetised on the computer without having to muck about looking for stuff and dealing with dusty old crappy CD cases. CD cases are SO shit. Those stupid little breaking teeth are pathetic.
I've 2 reasons
for keeping the vast majority of my music on CD or vinyl
1 is that I used to be ridiculously incompetent when it came to computers so I am wary of losing everything I save on it. I'm a lot better now and I'm sure I wouldn't do something stupid now but there are still viruses so it wouldn't even have to be my mistake that destrpyed everything. I know you say that you can redownload everything you buy as many times as you like but I've got at least 10000 tracks on various formats so redownloading all of them would take forever.
The 2nd reason is that I have a very nice stereo so music just sounds better on it. The fact that my PC is worth less then my stereo and my stereo is designed for playing music and my PC can play music but it's designed to do other things as well means that my stereo will always be better ats lone task.
Plus I still like making mix tapes. Thats not a good reason I know but still I do.
You can get a wire that goes between PC and stereo you know.
^
see
i felt like that before. I thought i didn't own it if I didn't have the record. But that's changed recently.
I'd suggest anyone who's ever thought 'I wish i had more money to buy records' tried eMusic for a month and if they really genuinely hate not having the cd then all you've lost is £8.99.
I sample stuff off blogs/hype machine
If I like it, I buy it.
Free to taste, costs to buy the thing. I like it that way. I won't say I'll 'never' pay for a download, but it's really, really unlikely that I ever will.
again, fair enough
but I'm questioning why people consider buying the cd to be buying it 'for real' but buying the download isn't?
Surely it's the music you're paying for?
I understand why it's nice to have cds. If there's a deluxe edition of a book I want to read I'll tend to buy that if I can afford it - even though the text in it's exactly the same.
but in financial terms, I don't understand the preference. Downloads are cheaper. You can back them up onto cds immediately if you so wish.
My position now is, I can pay £2 to 'sample' an album off eMusic which I then own 100% legitimately. If I don't like it (which happens) then I've lost much less then I would in the pre-internet days where I'd buy an entire album on cd utterly unheard because I was interested to hear it.
OR I can pay an additional £8 to have a plastic disc.
It's a no brainer to me these days. And I don't really miss cds anywhere near as much as I thought I would. I felt pretty much as you & guntrip and co do.
It's really only in the last few months my download evangelism has taken off.
It is the music, yeah
But it's also the physical object, the memories, the whole...thing. Nothing makes me happier than flicking through my CDs/records, or rifling through the shelves in a shop.
A download doesn't offer that. The thought of turning my computer on to find a song I want to listen to isn't one I much like. The computer isn't the central point of my life. And, I know I can put it on a CD or whatever from my computer, but...that's not the same, to me. There isn't the same thrill there.
I don't mind really.
I buy the odd dowload now and then, but All of the music I obtain comes from buying the actual CD from a shop, amazon marketplace, from a record label or when I'm slightly merry at a gig and I've spent the rest of my beer money on merchandise.
Like Jamie, Daniel and some others have said, I do like having the physical thing so I can display it and look through the artwork/read lyrics when I'm listening to said album.
I have actually got some stuff I need to back up that came out as free download only from some bands. I'll probably do this tonight.
I don't consider owning mp3s the same as owning an album
Not only is there a marked difference in quality, but what do you really own in an mp3? A computer file. To me that is nothing like going out and buying an album. When I purchase an album I like to hold something in my hands. It's as much about it being tangible as anything else.
There's something inherently natural in my mind about going into a good record shop, searching for an album, finding it, admiring the artwork/packaging, taking it to the counter, handing over cash and taking it away with me. It's all too soulless just to send some money (especially in the form of a subscription) to some alien company in return for a selection of computer files.
I have quite a few albums friends have given me in the form of mp3s, but I would never say I 'own' these albums. It's usually just as something of a tester, "hey, check this album out, you might like it..." If I do like it, I will invariably go out and buy said album to add to my collection. A collection of discarnate mp3s just isn't the same.
digital, innit?
you need to buy downloads encoded at higher bitrate if you can hear the difference between MP3 and CD - it's all 1s and 0s at the end of the day, just a question of how many...
but if you're a real purist, then you should be looking at analogue encoding. which is usually done to vinyl.
Which is why most of my music collection is in vinyl form
Besides, it still doesn't combat the whole 'tangible' aspect.
what you really own
in an mp3 is a way to listen to the music. It's just another 'format'. CD/Cassette/Vinyl/MP3/Minidisc are all just means of storing the music. You can listen to it on any one of them.
Unless you have a ludicrously expensive hi-fi you're unlikely to tell the difference between and 192kbps/VBR mp3 and a cd anyway. Especially on new recordings that are all compressed to da max anyway.
I've never tested it but I doubt the quality excuse would bear up much if you actually tested it on yr average joe forumuser. And I doubt quality is the main issue. if mp3s were cd quality some people would still object.
Yes it's nice to go into record shops. I'm not suggesting anyone stops going into records shops. BUT if something you want is only available to download (for whatever reason) then on what grounds would you refuse to pay for it?
I know nothing of the quality issues. I'm with you there.
And, on what grounds would I refuse to pay for it? On the grounds that it wouldn't feel like I owned it. That's all. It would just be another file on my computer, next to my CV, some porn and a spreadsheet listing the football grounds I've been to. That's not where I want my music to live.
it's the
'fetishisation of commodities' this is. People transferring their emotional response to the music onto the tangible object which they associate with the music. It's a powerful drive. Similar to erecting a tombstone to a dead loved one, or putting on your partners clothing when they're away for the weekend. It's a deferential psychological process. The cd really has nothing to do with the music. Nor does the computer really.
You could argue (though I'm not saying I would) that 'owning' an mp3 is a more direct reltionship to the music as there's no physical object as a barrier between you and it. Perhaps (as the mighty hard-fi has foresoothed) 'cover art' will be the next thing to go?
Well yeah
It's obviously bizarre that the music (in my mind) is so intrinsically linked to the art and the 'object'. It shouldn't be, at all. But it is. Maybe I'm a luddite, fearing change and not wanting to alter the status quo. But all I can say is what I personally feel. And that's that I really find it hard to get attached to something that sits on my computer. The computer is merely a tool to me, and not where I listen to my music. I have my stereo for that.
i don't think it's so strange
an album is a package, a combination of the music and the way the music is presented. the best records are the ones where the two "sides" feed off each other and enhance each other to give a satisfying whole.
I don't think it's strange either
or wrong.
It's just a mindset which I feel I've gotten over and I find it very liberating. Financially and otherwise.
If I could fit all of the 2,000 plastic discs that constitute my record collection onto one laptop then I'd be very happy. I'd still like to have a big shelf with them all for people to look through though.
I think now that I've establised the 'Download = £2' vs 'CD = £10' dichotomy it's really a numbers question. I don't have £40 a month to spend on cds...
"voting with your feet"?
did you download that adam gnade thing
illegally so you could still listen to it? or did you choose to just not have the music rather than 'steal' it?
this isn't an accusation or anything it's a just question to further investigate the topic under discussion.
no
although that may be because i've never seen it anywhere for download and don't really expect to as i don't really use 'standard avenues' for downloading stuff (torrents / soulseek etc) so it's never really been a possibility.
i don't know if i would though. and that's an honest answer. it's not really been something i've given any thought to..
you certainly can tell the difference between 192kps and a cd
srsly
and you don't need a "ludicrously expensive" hifi either - you can get a incredibly good pair of headphones for £50 and a very decent set for £20. And you can definitely hear a difference in quality. Oh, and if something is compressed to fuck i tend not to listen to it. Because it's probably shit
^this
my hi-fi's hardly ludicrously expensive (actually, the one in my car's the wrong side of a grand, so maybe that is), but I can easily tell the difference between a 192kbps mp3 and a red book audio CD.
I can't think of anything that is exclusively available as an mp3 that I really want to listen to. I'll be waiting for a discbox to listen to the new Radiohead album, but that's hardly top of my shopping list.
one thing
youre only really talking about eMusic here, which lacks lots of music. not many of your arguments apply to other vendors.
but i know you're just talking about people who are against it entirely, so that's that's that.
also:
if your point is that you should buy d/l only stuff if you're a fan, then you cant presume eMusic to be the model to judge its worth, as there wont be howevermany d/l only things by bands you're obsessed with in whateverperiod of time.
and if youre saying you should subscribe because its a cheap way
to hear lots of new music,
there are many many cheaper (ie free) ways to hear stuff, both legitimate and not-so.
do you think that artists deserve money purely for people checking out their music? for generating buzz/having buzz generated for them?
difficult one
i wouldn't use the word 'deserve'.
Speaking personally I'm happier paying a small price for an album i'm unsure about. Knowing that I've still made a contribution to that artist even if I end up not liking it.
It's a new technology and we're still feeling out the implications of it. It's basically no longer to pay a penny for the music you want to listen to if you don't want to. Buying a record in any format boils down to a charitable donation. I guess that means I'm stingier than everyone above.
As i said before. In the olden days I'd go to a shop and spend anything up to £15 on an unheard album. And even once illegal downloading came around I'd still prefer to buy something and risk the cash.
I've never felt this attitude of just downloading stuff for free that people are trying to sell and make a living from is fair. Whether it's to 'sample' it or not.
Sensible bands should give a few tracks for free stream/download so people can 'sample' them legitimately.
Just because it's easy to download illegally without getting caught doesn't mean it's all okay. Whilst I wouldn't ever go overboard actively condemming anyone for doing it, I don't accept any of the arguments saying it's all perfectly okay.
Once you've got an mp3 of something you're just as able to listen to it as someone who's paid for a cd. So what you've 'stolen' is really of equal value - even if they don't neccessarily cost the same.
If you copy a cd of some software and that software costs £100 - you've stolen £100 worth of stuff. Even though all you've done is put it onto a cd-r and nothing physical has been stolen, the content is not yours to take. Why is music different?
*no longer neccessary
talking 'bout my generation
generalisations follow!
i think this is partly a generational thing, people in their mid-20s and upwards will probably prefer to own the CD, because that's what they associate with the experience of buying and enjoying music. some early adopters and tech-savvy people will happily move to MP3.
youngsters will be more open to MP3 as a standalone format because they've grown up with it.
this is obviously a sweeping generalisation, and likely to be especially inaccurate across a DiS readership, but i think it might apply to the wider population, very broadly speaking...
to be honest
i don't really believe that large numbers of "the younger generation" (so, like, 14/15/16) bought lots of albums anyway. i know i didn't. i mostly bought singles, because it was more within my budget. i didn't really start buying albums until i had a source of income when i was 17/18.
so i don't really think anything is being lost there.
how it develops, however.. well, we'll see. but i don't think it's going to be the meltdown everyone is envisioning.
you don't seem to be envisioning any middle ground though
i download a lot of albums to see if i like them, before buying them. i waste very little money on CDs, and if i do it's on things i buy in sales on the cheap so they rarely cost more than a few quid anyway.
sorry, yes
download as a taster, buy physical if you like it, like bamos said.
having said that, i'd say a lot of people on DiS are early adopters, especially around music, so we're not a very representative sample.
well
I know people will feel it's ethical to download to sample and then if they don't like the record enough then arguably the bands lost nothing because they wouldn't have ever got the money anyway.
but it doesn't really work like that. you're still taking something, without permission, which someone is trying to sell. You wouldn't nick a bike from a bike shop and ride it around and then take it back saying 'it's not comfortable, I don't want it'.
I still can't see a convincing reason why this is any different.
or on the flip side do you take books out of the library, read them, and then buy a copy from a shop if you like it?
So what I'm saying I do is that I pay the cheap price for downloads and the stuff I'm 100% confident I'll like and that I really want to own as an object I'll get on CD.