As some of you know I put on gig nights from time to time. This may well soon be going monthly.
I mainly like to put on extreme stuff in a harsh noise/experimental vein. Basically, anything that's not a standard band set up playing 'normal' songs.
Now I have a quandry. I'm looking to go monthly, and I have found the perfect venue for these kind of nights (Nog Art Gallery on Brick Lane), but it's rather damn expensive.
The problem with the nights I want to do is that they are very 'niche' shall we say, they in no way have mass popular appeal. As such, getting an audience of any size isn't alway easy, and most people in the 'scene' (urgh don't expect to play to big crowds.
Is it acceptable to ask bands to play for free? I never keep any money for myself and if any money is made (which is rare) iwill give it to the bands. A lot of these types of bands rarely get to play live because of the kind of music they make so are often happy just to have a gig.
The other option would be to get a shitter, cheaper venue which would increase the likelihood of bands given some small form of payment, but would ruin the 'atmosphere' and 'quality' of the evening.
I don't really know what the point of this is, anything that gets said won't change the way I do things, but, yeah, discuss?
definitely acceptable
although i'm a bit concerned that you don't seem to have posted this thread to be "controversial". is everything ok?
:D
I never put on bands with black or female members.
But black members are hu...
Abandon reply
phew, normal service resumes!
but you did split an infinitive in your title, shouldn't your expensive education have ironed out such grammatical foibles? ;)
if you're not making any money
i don't really see any problems.
tbh if the sort of bands you're going to be putting on want to make money they're probably in the wrong business.
i don't think it's unfair that you should cover your costs. and they can bring stuff to sell to cover theirs.
^this
And as long as you promote your gigs properly so that there's plenty of people there and it's worthwhile playing, most bands won't mind.
That's the thing
with the nights I do there will NEVER be plenty of people there. A kind of 50 people absolute max kind of thing. That's the point, these nights are deliberately unlistenable and only appeal to a tiny minority of people.
I'd say 50's pretty good for an experimental night
I kinda meant more that it would be awful if no-one at all was there, and they wouldn't make any new fans/sell any of their latest screenprinted CD-Rs.
Speaking from not much experience,
I've played 20 to 25 London based gigs and only got paid for about 2 of them. Got a free drink sometimes. So I certainly didn't expect to get paid. It's just a nice bonus.
well
its worth asking. they can only say no and not play really cant they. its good exposure for them to people who are likely to like their music. bands that make noise rock are more likely to be making it for the love of it and not for the money anyway....
I think when you initially ask the band
It should be up to them to ask for a fee. If the band doesn't ask for a fee, cover their expenses, buy them some drinks and some food and shoot the shit with them.
If a band wants to be paid, they will let you know, it's not for you to make an offer. ('Cause if you offer money, of course they'll want it, regardless of whether they wanted to be paid or not in the first place)
^Exactly.
If bands expect money they'll ask for it.
The thing
about not offering any money in the first place, is that I don't want the bands to think that i'm keeping anything for myself.
And you call yourself a Tory? ;)
i was wondering who'd do that first :D
i was going to make a crack about being honest, or at least trying ;)
Funnily enough
I had an interview with a Tory MP once. When I told him I don't keep any money and share the wealth amongst the bands he was literally disgusted. I won't tell you who it was though.
I worked for a tory voter for a while
and he couldn't understand how I gave my friends cdrs of music without charging them all costs and an add on
simple
say this to them when you ask them to play. Be 100% honest - 'I'll pay you if I can but I can't promise anything'. then let them decide.
The only time is unnacceptable to not pay bands is when you've already agreed with them that you will - then you don't make as much money as you thought so you welch on what you've agreed. That makes you a cunt.
Or is you're just some lazy promoter who thinks he's doing bands a favour by forcing them to bring 20 friends to his othewise half empty shithole.
'say this'
as in 'say what you have said above'.
"The only time is unnacceptable to not pay bands is when you've already agreed with them that you will - then you don't make as much money as you thought so you welch on what you've agreed. That makes you a cunt."
what if the band have done bugger all promotion on there end and/or exaggerated what their draw is?
ultimately
it's still your responsibility as promoter to get people through the door. If you weren't confident then you don't make promises you can't keep. You say 'I promise you £20 but if we do well enough I'll give you £50'.
And if you're relying entirely on a band's 'draw' to get people in then you're asking for trouble.
On the scale GG's talking about getting a band to promise to bring 20/30 people and relying on that to cover the costs is tantamount to the band promoting the night themselves.
Genuine co-promotion is different, but then presumably the band are also shouldering some of the costs too.
well
i remember dan_thw had a story about a band who talked themselves up in order to get a guarantee of a certain amount and in the end booked so many shows around it they only drew a handful of people yet still demanded their full payment.
i'm just trying to point out that potentially welching on a guarantee isn't a black-and-white "you're a cunt" situation. it works both ways.
fair enough
but i'd say if you fall for a band doing something like that then it's shows you're maybe not the promoter you thought you were. you should have a feel for how many people a band will bring along. good knowledge about the scene you promote in should prevent problems like that.
sure it's a cunty thing for the band to do, but it'll ultimately harm them because they played a load of shit half-empty gigs, won't get booked again, and won't get trusted again.
not really
if you've booked them in good faith and they've organised a whole bunch of other shows afterwards, then that's a pretty cunty thing to do as well.
but then again we're looking at this from different sides of the coin, so i wouldn't expect us to meet anyway ;)
i promote gigs too
not a huge number but I do it and I take the risk. Thankfully all my gigs have made shitloads of money so far. Maybe that's cos I rule as a promoter, who knows?
Big fish in a small pond?
:D
I drank the pond
and pissed it out again. i OWN the pond.
Then that's unfortunate
and why I never guarantee money unless I'm sure of the act's ability to bring enough people to make it worthwhile.
But really how much bands promote gigs and what their actual draw is are factors you need to take into consideration when booking bands, and not just take bands at their word.
from my experience
in the past I've given bands a free drink and sometimes taxi money home. So long as you warn them of this when you book them they're usually pretty happy, and just enjoy playing. Then it's even nicer if you accidentally make a profit!
i never paid any of the bands i put on.
i used to get them free beer instead. ha.
Fucking hell. Koko really a bunch of bastards these days
I bet they make tonnes of cash on the door too.
yeah, cos i'm the booker at koko....
Wutevs.
It was a good joke. FUCKERS! :D
coming soon:
The Frames. every night. UNTIL THE END OF TIME.
supporting :
Wilt
Mark Greaney
Greaney should be headlining
plus he has a new band now! EXCITEMENT!
*EXCREMENT
you
should ALWAYS at the very least cover all expenses.
bands shouldnt be out of pocket for having played your night, their not the privileged ones who should be thanking you. it might as well be pay to play otherwise, its only respectful to cover expenses.
even if that
leaves you out of pocket?
^^^^ This
We don't play gigs to get paid. It's always going to cost money unless you make it to that lucky percentage.
Also YOU FUCKING KILLED MY JOKE ABOVE YOU MOMOS. :'(
.
YES.
haha
you're having a joke, right?
why?
that's ridiculous.
also, if you're playing in your own town then expenses are probably pretty low
i think
you should always aim to cover a band's costs. it's just the decent thing to do, if you can.
But it's totally acceptable to admit you might not be able to pay them when you book them, and if the band are happy with that then there's no problem at all.
I think it depends where you're booking the band from.
We don't expect our costs to be covered for London gigs (unless there is some unusual cost specific to the gig) but if we're playing out of town we appreicate it.
I agree, to an extent.
It's mutually beneficial though, ESPECIALLY for the kind of nights i'll be putting on.
Most of the artists i'll be putting on never manage to get gigs, or at least regular gigs, because they're too 'extreme' or whatever. They're just happen than someone could be arsed to arrange the gig.
I don't like not paying bands, but I don't want to have to pay to put gig nights on.
pffy no.
i'd pay expenses if i made enough money. i mean, i'm doing them a favour, they're doing me a favour, it's all mutual gain.
^ i agree with this
being out of pocket is the risk you take when deciding you want to put a gig on.
if the band's travelled or are on tour, the chances are that they'll need SOME money at least to pay for petrol and food and stuff.
having said that
if it was agreed before that there'd be little or no money for the bands, and they were okay with that, then it'd be fine.
if you've promised money then you should fulfill your obligations, even if it means being out of pocket.
yes
being out of pocket is a risk you take. but there's no point burning money, because bands who are deciding to play where nobody will know them are also taking a risk.
if the band
are on tour then i'll make an agreement about a fee in advance and, if necessary, pay it myself. but those are the only circumstances in which a band can expect to be paid..
by expect to be paid
i meant 'expect a guaranteed payment' ... most of the time, bands will still get paid something.
When do you put on gigs, mr. I don't like live music?
:D
Agreed
I always give bands a guarantee that I will pay their expenses, and if money is made I will pay more (unless something's been agreed beforehand). If you're a band that tours relentlessly then sometimes a good show and no payment doesn't cut it. Petrol/food/drink/strings/drumbeats/cocaine has to be paid for, and if the band have to dish out on every occasion it makes life a lot harder.
If I put on a night that wasn't well attended I wouldn't turn around and say 'yeah sorry, no money for you guys, no one's here'. It's the promoters job to bring people in, hence the name 'promoter'.
but
promoting basically doesn't bring people in. bands do.
True
But who decides the line up? I'd never put on a gig with 3 really obscure bands that only 10 people have heard of. It seems to work putting on one or two more established acts (one local, one out of town, or something) and a lesser known act on with them. Or something like that anyway.
yeah
but then something happens like the band you hoped would bring in some punters are actually playing 2 nights before at a smarter venue with cheaper drinks or something.
Luckily
That hasn't happened to be (yet). I promote in a small town with one proper venue that's solely dedicated to live music. Saying that, some local bands seem to play week in week out, which is stupid really. I have a 'no gig in the same town 10 days either side of my night' rule. It seems to work.
not true
I've been enticed out to see bands I've never heard of by decent proactive promoters.
There's a difference between a 'put the bands in the listings and make lots of posters' promoters, and promoters who establish themselves as having a reputation for quality to the point where people will go 'oh who's on at (suchanight) this month?'.
There's every change GG's night will end up being like this if he's putting on bands who don't get to play much cos they're too noisy. People who enjoy that will go 'who's playing Torynoise this month?'.
oh right, i'm with you
there was never anything like that in newcastle, or even manchester, when i was putting stuff on so it's not a totally familiar concept.
I hope so
Definitely need more noise gigs in London. And I guess that as GG needs to get some sort of kudos then he's not going to be able to shell out wads of cash for a while.
If bands are willing to play for free then who's going to argue with that? I wouldn't force money upon anyone who's happy with the opportunity to play a decent night on a good bill or whatever.
GG- you thought about getting someone fairly well known for the opening night? And you should book Baron Bum Blood, fantastic noisy noisy man.
'Torynoise'
:D
if you think the nature of the night
is something that bands will get some genuine enjoyment from, then put that to them, explain your costs and ask them. can't hurt, especially if you make it clear you will hand over profit if it is made. bands should get paid for every show they pay, but if that's not possible and the alternative is them just not playing, then goodwill and an effort to make it a good experience for them isn't a bad substitute.
bf
At the night I run, we pay bands if we take above fifty quid on the door (which is what the soundman charges)
This has happened exactly once, on the first night we did.
At the last one my arsey mate guarranteed the second from headline band fifty quid without telling the rest of us, which we made him pay out of his own pocket.
I usually assume I'm playing for free unless told otherwise.
And most of the acts I book for Silent Nights usually do it without expecting to get paid (although of course I'll pay 'em if there's any money - like you I don't keep money for myself).
I think most bands in London expect not to be paid and are grateful when they do (this may be less true of out of town acts), especially if you're an indpendent promoter and are gonna be out of pocket yourself by paying acts.
I think people only get unhappy if someone's making a lot of money and then not giving anything to the acts.
^this
im playing tomorrow. no money has been mentioned, and its free entry, so im assuming that we wont get paid. however, in junkplanet once we brought about 20 people, had no guestlist and got paid £10, whilst the headline band got paid £100 or something for bringing less people. this didnt make us happy.
As long as you're not swindling them
and are upfront at the start it's fine. As I say, I'm sure most bands of that ilk would be happy to get a showcase. And then if it gets a rep, I'm sure there might come a time where you can pay. Things are always tough at first - my crap night inspite of being free entry still takes £45 from each of the four runners each month
well,
what I've done is offer some of the bands a minimum amount, in case nobody shows up, therefore making sure I don't lose tons. But then if it's quite popular and I make a profit, I'll split it and pay them more.
also
while on this subject, why is deemed unacceptable in certain circles for promoters to keep money for themselves?
Because they are the man
and we all hate the man
Of course it is
You are doing them a favour.
You can offer them a free beer though.
It's acceptable
if you're an independent promoter with overheads of your own to meet, yeah, of course.
Particularly if the band haven't brought any paying customers in to see them.
Hmm, this thread has really surprised me.
I've always thought/assumed it's almost compulsory to pay bands something, even if it's not that much.
I'll have to keep this in mind.
no way
look after yourself. you can't keep running shows if you're losing money on them, it's a ridiculous idea.
plus, as i said ^^^ way up there, bands can bring stuff to sell, which gives them an additional revenue stream to cover their costs that you don't have.
eww,
i can't believe i used the phrase "revenue stream".
We always aim to
pay bands something, and it's very rare that bands haven't got paid but my argument is if one band brings 50 punters and another only brings 5, then band A deserve to be paid a damn sight more than band B regardless of their performance.
At the end of the day, if we aren't bringing customers into the venue to buy their beer, the venue won't have us back to put our shows on. It's a vicious circle really.
true
but it does lead to the stupid situation where bands are paid entirely based on how many people are there to see them and you get 3 completely different bands sharing a bill playing to people that have already seen them before etc etc.