Or at least, this world in which sexual equality has come to be something we value. Are they mutually exclusive concepts or can you be in favour of both? DiScus.
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being nice is being nice
on a slightly different not, sexual equality shouldn't mean men and women are thought of as the same (aside from biological differences) really...
Absolutely not.
A woman was walking behind me as I exited a shop the other day, I slammed the door in her face.
She looked shocked and surprised as she picked her crutches and shopping bags up from the floor.
I looked at her with contempt and said 'Blame the Pankhursts!'
I think women who rant at men for doing things like giving up their seat
or holding doors open should really learn to relax a bit. Someone is doing something nice for you and that's the end of it.
women get angry when guys do this?
i wish i saw guys do it more often! i, of course, am not a feminist though.
well
i dont think that males need to be particularly chivalrous.. like opening doors for women etc etc.. but i do think that being polite etc will always be appreciated. but i dont think we can expect men to open doors for us anymore.
I'll hold a door open for anyone.
It's not being chivalrous - it's just being damn polite.
Won't give up my seat for people unless there's a genuine reason why they need it more than I do.
^ This
Although I'd make one slight pedantic alteration; perhaps it is being chivalrous, because who says that men cannot behave this way to one and other?
cunt
Shut your filthy mouth, Fuckjar
Chivalry lives!
don't you open doors for
people??? i do, so i expect the same from others!!!!
The one thing that does irritate me........
and it's non gender specific, but, I find increasingly that I'll hold a door open for someone and either:
1) They'll walk through without looking at me or showing any acknowledgement whatsoever.
2) As above, but, there'll then be a stream of 10,20 or 20 people who will walk through behind them, none of them thinking to pause to let me through.
The British public are pretty rude these days, nothing that a few live executions before the National Lottery draw couldn't sort out though.
: )
Before?
AFTER!
Only get 1/2 numbers? Off to the Gallows...
Yes, it'd be like Logan's Run!
.
yes.
it's an elegant and pleasant way to behave, and there's no reason for it to stop. as long as women behave equally graciously, anyway. no-one's suggesting men should be gents and women should walk all over them.
i like a bit of old-fashioned chivalry, me.
yep, i agree.
Everyone should be polite. It's nice to be treated well regardless of being male or female.
I agree that politeness should be extended to all
and that holding a door open (as it doesnt cost anything, can be extended to all) I would also give up my seat on a bus for an elderly man as I would and elderly lady.
However I would go further for women.
If I was on my own on a bus and a young tto middle aged woman were to came on the bus and there were no other seats then I would get up and allow her to have the seat, which I wouldnt for a non-elderly and able bodied bloke
What, even if you don't want to sex them?
Madness!
No
There's a distinction between the notion of chivalry and just generally being pleasant to other human beings.
The concept of honour is a key component of chivalry, for a start.
This is true
All women should be honoured by men unless they prove themselves unworthy of such (Thatcher springs to mind)
Its such a shame that sarcasm and the internet often fail eachother
right?
The
entire concept of chivalry is founded on the unequal power relations between men and women. I dont really see how it could exist beyond the confines of that context.
I am generally more favourable disposed to protecting females
this is logical from a species survival point of view, males are more disposable than women.
It is a pre human imperitive that I have put into perspective and do not allow it unecessary importance, as we do not live (at present) in times where this is necessary
obviously because of my localised personal circumstance
of having sons then I am more predisposed to protecting them, but If I didn't had children then If I had to choose and there were not other significant factors then I would probably instinctivly save the woman/girl
Its the natural thing to do.
I lent my jacket to someone once
and that kind of stuff.. but I don't think i've ever put my coat across a puddle, or saved anyone from a black knight.
I pay for first dates and offer to for any subsequent ones- but I think this is more being gentlemanly than chivalrous.
Fuck that.
I let the woman pay...
Why
do you feel compelled to pay for dates? Would you even do that if a girl asked you out?
because he's a
gentleman
If a girl asked me out I'd still pay
unless she was really dull and was obviously just after a free dinner (though I can say I've never been in that situation)
I just expect to pay, just feels like the right thing. Though I'm still getting used to this being single mularky, and have no idea how things are 'meant' to work.
Personally I think it depends on earnings and various other factors
Usuually I'd split it. If I was with someone who I knew had little money then I might offer to pay but on the other hand if (as has happened before) the woman's offered to pay and I know full well she's in a better financial position that I am in and it's no skin of her nose to do so then I'd accept.
you're single aren't you
gotta be
I am
and I don't really care too much for dates and all that nonsense. But on the occasions I've been on them I've sometimes paid for stuff/sometimes had stuff paid for me and I have no problem with either of these, as long as it seems fair in the context of the situation.
there's nothing romantic
about being fair y'know
There's nothing romantic
about paying 'cos it's what you're "supposed to do" either.
Being romantic is more about spontaneous and imaginative gestures than adhering slavishly to old traditions that have no real relevance within a modern context.
thats right
if it don't come naturally to you, then don't worry about it
Well to me it breaches the line between chivalry and inequality
We live in an age where women work as much as men do and I feel I should respect their ability to pay for things.
The bottom line is most women earn a wage these days and most women probably earn a higher wage than I do. By offering to pay I'm being really patronising in implying they can't afford to pay for things.
There's nothing wrong with treating or surprising people but I'd sooner not do it in a contrived and patronising manner such as that.
I wouldn't feel patronised by it
It'd make me feel patronised if I was a woman.
Some people like it obviously. I knew a girl when I was in school who'd whine about people not paying for everything if she went on a date with them. I thought it was a terribly selfish attitude.
Plus the other thing to consider here is I don't want to mislead some poor woman into continuing to see me on the basis that I can spend money on her all the time. She might as well know I'm poor from the start to save any misunderstandings later...
well that girl is obviously awful
and I don't think there is anything wrong if a man doesn't offer to pay but it's just sweet when they do
why is it "just sweet"?
Any misogynist trying to get laid can pay for a meal.
aye, but
surely paying for, well, not everything, but paying for more than your fair share's just the same principle as holding a door open, you do it because you're "nice" or "well brought up", or whatever
I think it's entirely different.
In terms of the subconscious connotations.
Holding a door open is a small but thoughtful gesture has no real connotation beyond being polite, paying money to buy a meal, for example, is a far bigger gesture (or it is if your on my salary anyway!) with a connotation of "I've bought something and now you owe me so how are you gonna pay me back" which I think is much less pleasant.
exactly
theguy and Helen_Forsdale, can't seem to get that some men aren't doing it cos they feel obliged but because they actually want to
no-one wants to spend money.
What they want is you to feel like you've had money spent on you so you're on some level in debt to them.
what sort of men do you know?
I'm not talking about inviduals
I'm talking about the subconscious motivation behind a gesture.
And however you want to dress it up in terms of politeness and chivalry, what it comes down to in psychological terms is the process of buying something and thus expecting the debt to be repaid.
argh
this is turning into some escheresque nightmare, soon we won't be allowed to do anything nice because selfless acts are ultimately selfish because they're done, at least a little, to make you feel good about yourself.
look, women shouldn't assume men ought to pay for everything.
men shouldn't pay for things just to get sex.
men and women should just be nice to each other, do things because they're nice, and because they're nice people.
can't we leave it at that?
I'm happy to leave it there.
bullshit
that really is.
It could be to show someone you really like them and what they do with that info is up to them.
I can show someone I really like them
without using a wallet.
its not about the money
and the fact that you can't see that
shows that that is what is important to you and that is not sexy now is it?
Fuck me I've wandered into 1984
Talk about doublespeak.
The fact I think showing off money is entirely irrelavent as a gesture shows I must really care about money?
You do realise that that actually makes absolutely no sense?
look
you seem not to have the inclination or courage to do a nice thing for someone and not care what they think because you know that your intentions were genuine and honest and nice
You really don't know me.
You have no idea how much I wish you were right.
sorry
I'm sure you're lovely, I was just trying to make a point.
I'm sure I was lovely at some point.
Not so sure now to be honest.
the point is
that you wouldn't expect a female friend to pay for the whole meal. Sharing the bill is the fair thing to do.
There's a code dictated by society which says men who pay for the whole meal are "showing respect" to the woman, but of course you don't have to respect a woman at all to pay for a meal.
but I'm not saying that
a shithead who pays for a meal is still a shithead yes
so why is it "a sign of respect"
Don't get personal with theguy, by the way.
I don'rt think it is a sign of respect
I think it's really sweet and I really appreciate it if someone does it
but have you examined
for example, why a man paying for the whole meal, in an environment where sex is on the cards like a date, is more "sweet" than a female friend paying spontaneously?
It's a set of rules which are laid down by society and the rules ultimately benefit men, not women.
one in eight men
believe they have the right to rape a woman under certain circumstances, and one of those circumstances was "if I've spent a lot of money on her".
Of course you'll say "but the men I know are nothing like THOSE men". But I just think it's important to keep in mind the nasty background which informs a lot of the rules about how men and women should behave.
that's actually
quite frightening.
where did you hear
that? it sounds like total bollocks to me.
can't remember
A reputable source though. But I probably should be more careful about throwing statistics around.
wtf?
thats the most ridiculous fact ever.
So what is it about?
It's a hardly a sensitively thought-through gesture is it? It's just the process of whipping a card out and handing it to the waiter. So it can't be about the thought process either so far as I see...
it can be sensitive
if you're skint. i mean, if you're a rich fucker who can afford it, that's not sensitive. but if you really like a girl, and she knows you're poor as, and you don't have getting your end away in mind, then paying can be a really sweet gesture.
what about if you pay for a meal, then deliberately don't go back and sleep with her, hm?
also, i think your problem is that you see niceness as a means to an end, and that's a problem. but, don't we all try to be nice to people in general, that we've only just met, that we have huge crushes on, or that we know fairly well or whatever. we be nice because we're nice people, it's not some sort of sinister plot, it's just what it is. niceness. i'm not sure if you're bitter because being nice has failed you in the past, or you've seen horrible bastards get what they want with consumate ease, but mate, it's not healthy, it's really not.
"I think your poeblm is you see niceness is a means to an end"
I think my problem is that I really, really don't.
ok, i'll rephrase
i think your problem is people who see niceness as a means to an end, and the "success" you see them having? i don't know a) where you're going with your arguments, and b) why i'm arguing back
I think it's both
a) the number of people who'll see niceness as a means to end and be 'nice' in a very cynical fashion I don't find very nice at all.
b) if you are genuinely nice, the number of people who'll take advantage of that fact and fuck you over to get what you want.
Contrary to how I come across in this thread I'm actually a really nice guy (and I mean nice in a "nice for the sake of it" way not nice in a "in it for some kind of reward" kind of way) but I don't think I'd recommend to anyone else to be the same.
you come across
as #1 Disillusioned Man
:)
Pretty much.
I just like treating girls
It makes me feel ace. Like buying them gifts. Gifts in the form of food - the greatest gifts of all.
With the risk of sounding laaame
it's really nice when you suprise someone and she goes a bit girly and blushes.
Oh, absolutely.
But I don't think you get that by paying on a date as it's a kind of situation where it's semi-expected. I think it's much better to do something spontaneous they wouldn't have seen coming at all.
Ok, paying for a meal isn't really one of those situations
being spontaneous rules. And I think it's a good way of letting someone know how you feel about them.
Oh my God, isn't it?!
Girls <3
You think too much!
Sometimes I astound myself with how cynical I've become.
I spent most of my teens and early twenties believing myself to be of the 'nice' guys. Now I'm not even sure I believe nice people exist at all.
but
it can be a bigger gesture, but still _of the same type of gesture_. anyway, paying for dinner doesn't automatically mean "you have to suck my dick twice now"
or have i been missing out on something?
Of course it doesn't mean that.
But you'd be amazed and vaguely scared how many men I've encountered in my life who get dead pissed off with women if they've forked out and that doesnt then happen.