Do any of you find, when mixing a recording, or even just writing a song, that as everyone wants a say, the original idea gets lost, and you end up with something that no-one is really happy with?
Do any of you find, when mixing a recording, or even just writing a song, that as everyone wants a say, the original idea gets lost, and you end up with something that no-one is really happy with?
If this is the case
you probably shouldn't be in a band with them... but you should always be able to make a compromise...its what being in a band's about!
Yeah I'd agree..
everyone will have slightly different takes/ideas, but as long as you all have roughly the same 'big idea' then things should be ok.
forgot to say
That also, this is something you have to accept will happen in bands. No idea you have is ever going to be as it was 'in your head' when you put it in a band stuation, so yeah - compromise is good.
^ this
basically being in a band is ALL about compromise. As one of my bandmates said, "it's all about compromise... it's about what you can live with and what you can't live with".
I sometimes worry that a compromise has watered down an idea...but on reflection I've found that it has resulted in the best possible outcome. I don't think anyone in my band has a definitive vision for what we do. So working together we shape things better than we could if one person was calling all the shots.
If you think you have a clear vision of how your music should sound, and feel others get in the way, you should probably be solo artist. Possibly working with session musicians if needs be. Like Van Morrison.
Go solo
if you hate compromising, that is the only solution to people ruining your brilliant ideas or coming up with crap parts that don't do the song justice.
Yeah
I occasionally try and compromise and go with other people's ideas, but you end up getting really pissed off.
I find writing with one other person, if one of you is taking the lead, is quite good. Anymore people and it tends to go wank.
you have to be willing to try anything though
even if you're convinced an idea won't work, you have to try it. sometimes you'll suprise yourself and end up preferring something miles away from how it started, plus it's great fun digging out old rehearsal recordings and listening to how you used to do something....it's usually worse than you remember!
But...
What if it gets to the point where most of the band is happy with something, but someone's insisting on changing it?
I know this normally manifests itself in recording terms, where everyone wants to be the loudest...
Interesting range of ideas as well... So far we can strike up a crushing blow for Democracy over dictatorship, and yet, a lot of the best / most successful bands tend to be dictatorships...
in that case majority rules.
to be honest though, in my band we're all reasonable enough to put up with things we don't like on certain songs and in turn get our own way with others so we rarely argue.
This is normally the way with mine too
but seeing how easily it can cause conflict, I reckon it must be the source of all those "musical differences" that split bands up.
Eventually, someone decides they're not being listened to and things boil over, so is it not better for one person, in whatever role, to assume a voice of authority, or does this just make things worse?
I guess its
hard to say. I don't think there is any 'system' for being in a band. I think a lot of these issues depend on the people and so on. As monkey says though, if everyone can accept a bit of give and take then you normally don't get to the point of a hideous row.
Yeah, it's definitely a personality thing...
The real problems are when you have a selection of clashing egos, all fighting for space...
That said, U2 are still going...
True
I think a lot of conflicts come down to pre-conceived ideas of how something should be. Ideally when I take a song into a practice I have absoloutely no ideas about how it should sound, and what the parts should all be etc.. better to let everyone interpret it in thier own way keep it flexible and it will flow out how it wants. Sorry for sounding like a hippy ;p
It's a bit like that Brian Clough thing
We sit down and talk about it for twenty minutes and decide I was right. IT WASTES TIME
haha
well fair enough, but then you need to be getting session players in who will do exactly what you want. It's pretty hard to find musicians who will just 'be told' with no input of thier own and play for free..
even so...
I'm trying to get my head round the idea of writing for a band after years of just me and electronics and it's honestly very frustrating, even when you give a brief and a demo to everyone else of what you'd like to hear and they still don't get it - every time it happens you wonder whether it's them or you doing something wrong and sometimes you have to wonder whether the compromise is worth it to keep the peace. I really like being in a good band though, and i don't have enough time to form another where I can be a tyrant!
Occasionally.
I'm quite lucky with this 'cos
a)I tend to write songs with no specific ideas in mind for other parts so as long as the emotional feel is right I'm usually okay with it working out a bit different to what I expected.
b) There's a clear and definite structure in the band that ends with me getting the final say. I'm by no means a dictator and I'll always listen ot others but, when there are disagreements it's accepted that it's my final decision which way we go.
Ah, now b) sounds interesting...
because you still end up having the ultimate creative control - therefore everything works together as a 'single voice' if you will excuse the nu-meedja language.
As Mr. Amyblue says though, do you not sometimes think it's worth it to keep the peace?
Sometimes it is.
I mean as it stands I tend to be fairly reasonable and compromising anyway so I'll only really enforce my opinion when I feel really, really strongly about it. And, because I don't do it that often, people tend to support me when we do.
Also a fair bit of our recording is done by me and our drummer (who is in fact a multi-instrumentalist and an extremely good one). Not all of it - there's some songs when we do use the whole band - so it then just comes to the rest of the band adapting what we've done to work live...
That said I did have a hell of an argument over the weekend regarding a particular song. In the end I did climb down and decide I was being a bit unreasonable and we did compromise and it seems to have worked...
I know exactly what you mean with b)
My band have been going for about four years and we all know each other well- we arrange songs together and individual contributions are invaluable, but what we do has always been my vision really so it often comes back to me to have the final say.
...
I find usually there's at least one dominant personality who makes sure that an idea is followed through to completion - whether he came up with it, or whether he just liked one that someone else came up with.
As for myself, if I'm not happy about a musical idea - I tend to sulk. Proper sulking. I'm not proud of it, but there you go.
Ha ha
An honest admission though, so fair do's mon ami.
Sulkers really are annoying though. I've only had a few in bands over the years and they tend to cause the most problems...
...
Actually, I should clarify - I can be constructive without sulking - but that's only if I respect the musician who came up with the idea I don't like.
Otherwise: Sulk.
Ah well this is the thing...
Is it basically down to a fundamental lack of respect that all band arguments come about - i.e. no-one respects anyone else's musical opinion, and it all ends up in one hideous row?
...
Well I remember when I was in this group who described their sound as "Stereophonics mixed with Linkin Park and Nickleback". I spent one rehearsal running every single riff into the cold earth and didn't answer any more of their calls.
Thing is, I was only supposed to be playing an emergency gig with them - but I have standards, dude.
Ha ha ha ha
You did the right thing.
Jesus Christ..
I imagine this would be the sound track to the rising of the Beast.
no.
The most problems are caused by people who don't fucking practice or put any thought into what they're doing so you end up wasting hundreds of pounds in a recording studio having to play their parts and somehow glue the song together using cut and paste methods.
Yeah.
Ouch...
I'll concede that one... sounds like a nightmare...
sulking, aaarg!
you should be ashamed! :D actually, you should be more direct and say why you don't think it works, else it's just wasting time. my co-lead tends to sulk and play badly/not at all if he's not into something, he just runs it into the ground...
...
Yep, that's me, alright. To be fair though, I'm just the bassist so my opinion shouldn't count - what's his excuse?
um...
the drawbacks of 'idolising' billy corgan is that two in one band doesn't really work...!
Is it the general consensus then that when you let your idea loose in a band situation then it almost never stays how you imagined it would, for better or worse? Does democracy tend to kill creativity?
I don't think so
You just need people that come from the same angle, then it becomes a case of 4 heads being better than one.
Besides, I'm not 100%, but didn't the drummer have a lot to do with the arranging and writing in the pumpkins? he was well into orchestral stuff from what i heard.
Fuck me it's our bassist who doe sthat also!
Is there something owt funny about bass-players sulking?
Nah, it's our drummer that gets the sulks...
It just varies from band to band.
were you sulking on sunday
about that tremelo guitar part i was insisting on doing that didnt fit in any way?
...
Phnar. I was considering creative mixing methods to make it fit. What you need to understand is that this process usually takes weeks, not minutes.
This is the case with most bands
whether they admit it or not.
Democracy is a lie.
It's not a lie...
It's how mine works, and so far it's just about held together...
That said, recently members have been prioritising the things they want so they can say "This is the ONLY thing that's important to me, I don't care about the rest" while moaning about the rest as well...
Maybe you have a point...
Nah,
Most bands that are dictatorships are normally just making do because everyone really wants to be playing something else.
oops..
like jazz funk..no offence meant ;P
my band
is like an authoritarian state.. i'm fairly sure we'd be playing jazz funk otherwise..
Now THAT is a case for dictatorship.
This used to happen with my last band
because their influences weren't like mine, so I'd sort a song out and they'd change it into a different sort of thing. That was cool, though. I guess if I wanted on those songs I would have final say since they were 'mine'.
Pocus is a lot about compromise but usually in a good way where we all just throw ideas around. Most songs originate very much from one member so we tend to let them have most say in how we take it.
There has to be a main songwriter
in a band really, and everyone else has to realise that there's no point in "having a say" for the sake of it. For the first 6 months or so of being in a band, the main songwriter should lead with the arrangements, and then open things up after everyone has learn the other band members strengths.
it is interesting to see how other bands work this...
I personally can't see how any band can be at their best without a single person in control. I guess it worked for experimental loud bands like Sonic Youth, Fugazi, Oneida (but even then there would have been individuals guiding each song), but I can't think of many outside that kind of genre where this would work unless you literally struck gold and had four or however many people of exactly the same level of ability who were completely in tune with each others ideas.
I suppose REM would be the obvious sore thumb here, where everyone appeared to have equal say and ended up writing well over 100 brilliant pop songs. But then I haven't read up on their history in any detail so maybe it didn't work like that. Any other band I can think of (that I really like) had one person with an overall veto on everything, at least on a song to song basis.
The Minutemen?
Do Portishead count as a band? How about Trans Am? The Locust looked pretty egalitarian, but maybe it's just hard to know who's in charge.
we can all agree that
Having a johnny Borrell-ish frontman is possibly the worst thing ever EVER.
Though judging from this thread in the future I'm going to have to tell them note for note what i want, if they come up with something better then that's cool, if they can't be bothered to learn it then I pull a siamese dream in the studio and we never do it live and it's THEIR FAULT. mwahahahah! evil genius! <rips shirt off and seduces hollywood starlet>
this is exactly why i'm not in one of my bands anymore