What's it like these days? I've been advised by a couple of people not to play there and am curious as to know the reasons why...
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From the Archive - Jeffrey Lewis answers your questions... with crayons
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From the Archive - Jeffrey Lewis answers your questions... with crayons
From what I gather
they try to cram as many bands onto a bill as possible, meaning you don't get much of a soundecheck and your set might end up being cut short.
Ive beena couple of times
And the sound was pretty good. They do like to get 3-4 bands on the bill though.
It's like any other small venue
Unless it is a night promoted by a single entity (eg I was at a Metalhammer night there last week)then the bills can be very disparate.
So you get the usual problem that what fans there are just turn up for the band they want to see and then fuck off back to the bar or go home. Water Rats is no different to anywhere else in this respect.
On a venue specific point - they have an extremely loud PA system in there now - many bands are quite painful to listen to.
they get
some decent shows in, a lot of breaking bands eg; the rascals, black kids, glasvegas, mgmt, those dancing days
i like the place
don't you work for
the monto?
Mega-Zing!
my mate's band...
played there not long ago and the sound guy didn't turn up until after the first of the evening's four bands should've been on stage. staff there did fuck all to help and no-one got a soundcheck. that said, he made decent job of the sound on the hoof, and the sound and atmosphere was good.
a good friend's
band played there a short while ago.
the door staff were coked up, one of them tried to deck the singer of my mate's band(if you knew the guy you'd understand how ridiculous this is) and tried to overcharge everyone going in. they lied about flyers, cheap list and guest list(pretended that these things did not exist).
the main thug pretended to be the promoter (who, importantly, wasn't even there) and was talking about 'ending careers'.
despite the place being rammed, no-one got paid (to the best of my knowledge, the PA was devastatingly loud to the point that some tamer hearts just left the room and yeah, if people are not there to specifically see you guys chances are they will stay in the bar or be out front smoking fags.
i've rarely seen a place run so badly - and that's saying something as i've put on some of the most shambolic nights of all time.
This sounds really grim.
Is water Rats run by Bugbear?
i think it used to be..
up until a couple of years ago then i think this lot 'Monto' took over (hence Monto's Water Rats i guess?).
i remember it being ok a few years ago too...
and yeah, it really is grim to say the least...oh, i totally forgot - the publishing company that were down to see one of the other bands got turned away at the door (this due to the doormen binning the guest list to take more dollar on the door)
They seem to have 2 gigs on tomorrow
One from 7 - 10 and one from 10 onwards.
That's a bit of a recipe for disaster...
they
do that quite often, unbelievably.
it ends up meaning that no-one's really responsible if things run over or go wrong. or everyone is, or something.
either way they're fucked.
well, they're not, they're raking it in. the bands and the fans are fucked.
Glad it's not just me
this has happened to. I've been there to see mates bands a few times, on the guestlist everytime, and they still insisted I pay.
they also tried to charge me £15 one night. Unfortunately for them, I'd been in there 3 hours after wandering in through an unattended side door, so I got away with a free one.
15 fucking pounds..haha what a bunch of twats.
nah
The Monto took over from Plum Promotions, innit.
it's a nice looking place inside now
and kind of reminds me of new york. but the door staff are annoying, there aren't many places to stand where you won't be completely in the way of everybody hawling their ASSes between live room and bar, the live room itself if the hottest room on earth when it's full and as some one has mentioned, the PA is ear-hurtingly loud.
anyone
who works for / with the venue got anything to say about any of this?
That guy up there. Muzz.
^^ Murray something, works for them. He should be able to say something!
absolutely horrendous promoters
the worst we've encountered.
Absolutely only interested in the money rather than the night.
They'll negotiate different rates for advance ticket sales with different bands from the same night.
We had to buy 60 tickets in advance to get them at £4 (thus avoid charging £8(!) to people on the door)
Then, when we sold 78 tickets in advance...get this (really quite special)..they said we couldn't have those extra 18 at £4 and would have to buy these at £6.
Basically we'd payed them well over £200 to play their night by this time.
OK so...before doors, everyone from the bar is ushered outside into the cold to wait until the venue's ready.
It's weird, when you talk to them they're kinda softly-spoken 'nice guy' types.
But on experience I have to say they're the most soul-bankrupt scene-cancerous mean-spirited little conmen we've dealt with
and just about the worst thing about the London gigging scene.
um yeh that basically.
Wow
I've been to some very good shows there over the last year. Wasn't aware that it had such a bad reputation...
They also have a habit
of advertising the shows misleadingly. For example, the upcoming Retribution Gospel Choir show is billed as Low, with the real band name in brackets. It is not a Low show.
not from goonight are ya?
no
They've been fine with us
Maybe it depends on which night you're playing with regards to who you deal with/how much effort they make with the bands??
If you don't agree with the deal then don't sign the contract or play there when you can attract a bigger crowd and the ticket thing isn't an issue.
Doormen are doormen.
Not heard the new PA yet but I don't see a problem with it being loud...
frankly,
that's bollocks.
'doormen are doormen'...it's that kind of bend-over-and-take-it attitude that gets people screwed by immoral bastards over and over again.
grow a set.
'play there when you can attract a bigger crowd' - how condescending! like i said, the band i went there to see sold the place out very nearly and it was still a horrible disaster.
you really think anyone would sign a contract that said ' we, the absentee promoters will tear up your guest list, overcharge all the punters and condone physical assaults on band members and/ or fans?'
cock in a basket.
If Plum promotions still do it then its shit
have no respect for bands really as promotors. There's a tiny clue in their name as to what they should be doing. ok venue though but bad sound.
If yr a band in london now- just run your own night, put your own money in and do everything you can
There's far too many robbers in 'this business'.
I know ive 'outed' him before,
but check out 'Karl:The Promoter' on myspace - he really is quite appalling.
they don't do it.
I've found plum better than Monto. Personally.
I'm fairly sure a night I used to be a regular at
was a small-ish plum-affiliated night and the guy who runs that is a dude and posts occasionally on DiS. But I did do one gig for them, a bigger gig in Shoreditch, where he wasn't there and his 'boss' came along instead, and sullenly pretended not to know that there was any poetry on the bill at all. Not good, not good at all, but it only happened the once! I did a shit set, as well, probably because I was thrown by his attitude.
I do hate it when non-musical acts get ignored by promoters for whom they're meant to be performing.
Muzz..
is it true you lied to get your job at Water Rats by saying that you were the main booker at another venue when you wern't?
that's muzz?
And he works at the water rats?
What a surprise that place has gone to shit then!
Ha ha
http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=5&storycode=1033630&c=1
aye
a few people work there though...
The
No guest list and having two seperate gigs on the same night was a pain in the arse.
Agree with the run your own night thing.
Not as bad a gig that expected the bands to "pay" £15 for the gig though! Lazy promoters and slack journalist will be the end of live music.
The promoter [I think he sounded Irish incidentally] is a complete cunt
and the whole approach is mercenary - avoid if you can. The soundguy can be awkward but knows his room [one small positive in what is a huge pubichairball of a prospect for any up and coming band].
I briefly wondered what a Pub iChair Ball was
Yeah because
those Irish are cunts. What difference does it make what nationality you thought he might be? A cunt is a cunt.
Woow!
I just mentioned his nationality so that folk are forewarned when they speak to him - of course nationality is of itself irrelevant!!
Late reply:
'Doormen are doormen' wasn't meant as a defence. It's not a problem that's specific to the Water Rats. If you have a problem with the doorstaff tell the venue. I doubt they hand pick them for their personalities.
I can only imagine that the promoter is USUALLY there abd you were unlucky.
sounds terrible
mercenary promoters, treating bands like shit, exploitative, etc etc.
But who are the bands who play these gigs when you have to buy twenty tickets / pay-to-play? I'm seriously amazed these promoters can get away with it. I'm friends with quite a few bands and I don't think they even know about the whole pay-to-play business. I only heard about it from reading here. Isn't it quite easy to be offered gigs / support slots / clubnights? Alternatively, can't you just put your own gigs on?
^this
I'm still amazed they get away with it too. I've not been in this promoting lark for very long but it's pretty much a given that it's the promoter's job to get the place busy.
The way some promotors got around the end of 'pay to play'
by "getting your mates to buy tickets in advance, but can you buy a job lot first and you sell them on, wicked, its a showcase night", is simply the most disgusting thing in the world, but of course we're all drunk on rock romanticism and they know that so we'll do anything to 'get on stage' - its a learning process which thankfully the internet and being more aware will sift out these people and we can all get on without being ripped off.
However most Blue Square Premier promoters are utter rip off bastards as well making a modest buck out of bands who'll never go anywhere barring cash converters to sell their broken hearted gear after two years of hearty rejection
Water Rats isn't 'pay-to-play'
They get you to sign a contract stating that you'll bring a certain number of people (no money is paid). It's usually about 30 people which still means that they have to 'promote' the night in order to definitely fill the place and filters out the bands that aren't very popular. If a band can't commit to guaranteeing 30 people then they should play somewhere smaller.
Perhaps they have different promoters running different nights but this is the experience that I've had with them.
I have played there
twice and its always been brilliant.
Pre-selling tickets *is* pay to play
It's an underhand tactic.
hey!
bundoz, your right about that karl, what a bollocks!
what happens if you don't bring 30 people?
just out of interest? Do you then have to pay the surplus of ticket price?
Also, has their ever been a band that started playing these 'bring 30 people' things and have actually got somewhere? Did Oasis do this back in the day when they were gigging round Manchester? Did Radiohead used to mini-bus down their families and friends from Oxford so they could play the Water Rats?
dunno about radiohead and oasis (although the chances are high)
but i know plenty bands who've been on that sort of deal and done verrrrry well out of it (ditto: bands who've been on guarantees way above their league).
To be honest the
problem is that generally whoever you play for, the promoters don't actually know what the word means.
Why is down to bands to guarantee a certain amount of people? Of course we all want to bring as many people down as we can, but at the end of the day if the PROMOTER is putting on the night, surely its thier fucking job to get a crowd in there - hence the meaning of the word.
To a hell of
a lot of promotors, promoting the gig to them means putting a poster up in the venue..that's it.
Precisely.
When I play a gig obviously I want people there but you can't really guarantee anything. We all have nights were friends/fans are busy elsewhere and you bring a minimum number of people and very few bands try to play to an empty room...
On the other hand when I promote I never blame the bands if there's not much of a turn-out. Once or twice I've felt a band hasn't even tried to bring people and have been a bit reluctant to book them again as a result but so long as a band's done their best to bring people down then that's all you can ask really...
sigh
I wish we could use your genes to create more nice promoters like you.
Agreed
well
i'm going there tonight, i'll report back... i'll take my handbagcam.
intriguing...
We're playing tomorrow night. I always thought it was a reputable place - haven't heard anything bad from mates' bands who have played there.
Our set time has been moved twice and we're now on really late as they booked Pop Levi at the last moment, but I'm not overly worried about that.
Will report back...
Results:
Well, I went along with slight trepidation after reading the above but was pleasantly surprised by everything, pretty much.
We were on last so s'checked first at 3:30pm, which is admittedly pretty early but meant we had loads of time, and the sound guy was cool.
The door staff were nothing short of charming all night and stuck to our guest list perfectly.
Yes, it is motherfucking loud in that place. The bands which were all about lots of heavy guitar noise sounded even shitter than they might otherwise, and the vocals didn't cut through. But the slightly more intricate bands sounded awesome.
7 bands - quite a lot, but it all ran really smoothly otherwise. Great venue I would say - look forward to next time. No stairs, easy access, good room, loads of space to store all your stuff, even with 7 bands on the bill.