but a lot of my favourite hip hop artists (ones i listed in the other threads) are Nas, Wu Tang, Mos Def etc. which are hardly experimental in the way you suggested.

I think the reason people namecheck people like that is because the people saying hip hop is shit are usually the ones put off by violence etc. of the more well known acts, so to suggest people who do something a bit different is logical.

Shit rap, just like there is shit indie (or whatever that is nowadays). But this is a matter of opinion, just like most arguments.

Many people shout out names of 'legitimate' rappers just to sound cool and 'in the know', while they have probably never sat down and listened to an album by them.

If MTV2 plays them, oooh they must be good.

I think to be a goof rapper you need to have a good lyrical flow, combined with lyrics that actually get the listener thinking. That's what it's all about. With good beats to match, but they need not even be pivotal.

in defence of guitar bands before and said its not oasis and blur you know (this was a while back).

also...i like akala...does he count as mainstream or experimental. his stuff is the first hip hop i have liked in a year

i think it's "hip hop is great, here are some great artists (who just tend to be indie-ish)"

I'd say this is partially to do with the far more visible presence of certain indie rappers on the generally indie world of internet zine-culture, so people are far more likely to be down with DOOM because every bugger is always going on about them. It's also to do with indie fans finding points of crossover on the Venn diagram of tastes, so they tend to move towards rappers who are emotionally resonant, or who are perceived to be intelligent (the sort of things they might look for in indie music)

Of course, there's a portion who subscribe to the whole "i don't like bling n hos crap" doctrine, but i'd say that tends to be more inherited wisdom than anything else. Even indie-approved artists like DOOM aren't going to be winning any "feminist of the year" awards

"If someone said all guitar based music is shit ...we don't all jump up and point "it's not all like The Kooks you know...check out ex models!"

A lot of people do. There's elitism in every genre.

ddllkd thhht garggh dgj fffttchao, Pazrgh! (aaarccssh?)

you look at the innovators of 'guitar music' - the people who were the first to try everything and succeed: The Beats, Hendrix, Led Zep etc.

and then you compare these to the people who were responsible for the same things in hip hop, like the Public Enemy guy etc., and there's no real common ground.

Hip-hop's about what people say, not how they say it. As a lover of music, this isn't what I'm looking for. Maybe if I was a poetry fan, but I'm not.

Is that Black People finally have music that White Folks aren't lining up to steal from them.

de la soul, tribe called quest, jungle brothers, jurassic five, etcetera, none sound like indie rock

i can't be bothered to read all the little bitches but when someone says to you 'rock music is shit these days' you say 'no it isnt... *list some great bands*' and if hope they feel wrong.
If someone says 'Hip Hop is shit' you do the same... just make that person aware of the great hip hop bands their are.
get real home dog before i pop one in yo a.

'Merked in Rio'

disapointing to say the least.

What do you care man? You probably don't even own any hip hop nusic or ever listen to it. But, you care enough about it to call a stranger an idiot and a fool- Whatever! My point, if you would just take a minute to think about it is this: Hip Hop is uniquely black (that means black musis for black people) Black people don't like white fools tryin that shit. Artists like the ones you mentioned are considered monkeys by most black people- Believe me I know. Do you even know any black people? If you do, which I doubt, ask them what they think of white hip hop artists- you might find it eye opening. But don't get me wrong it's ok for white boys to listen to hip hop, Yeah, they'll take your money- fool.

RTD