pretty nonsensical?
I mean, it's pretty safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of people are against racism, whether it be the theory or the practical application.
It seems about as sensible as declaring yourself an 'anti-rapist'. Yes, that's great, but we all think it's wrong too, it's just a little bloody obvious, so why make a point of it.
I guess the reports of the LM,HR event in London brought this to mind. That said, I love the thought of a bunch of white people who would never dream of voting BNP chanting 'Fuck the BNP' in response to some other white people urging them not to vote for...errr...the BNP.
Crazy days.
yes but if you are actively anti-racist
ie on some sort of political / activist level then i think the label is fair enough
That's fair enough, I'm thinking more of student radical/Freedom for Tooting types.
well, again
more than likely they are involved in swss or some shit like that, so could describe themselves as 'anti-racist' (and probably anti-semetic too but that's another story)
Ha! That reminds me of an incredible placard I saw at Manchester University......
Front: 'Peace in the Middle East!'
Back: 'Destroy Israel!'
I really don't think SWSS are anti semitic.
Foolish many of their policies may be, but I've yet to see them play the "Jews as cartoon supervillians" card. They'd still stand on the same side of the fence with regards to the issue no matter which religion the Israelis belonged to.
Fair point
but I would like to stress I'm opposed to murder on all levels.
Love Music, Hate Murder........
well, you've just marginalised large sections of the hip-hop and black metal communities!
Im not
I watch 'Dexter'
who are you saying does
self identify as an anti racist? People chanting 'fuck the bnp' at LMHR? Even if it's easy to parody, I like there being some kind of anti-racism/bnp movement going, I think it's needed.
I don't mean literally everyone who has
ever attended a rally, just those people who see it as a defining part of their character, they're out there, believe me!
well what's wrong with that really?
feminists who see their politics as a defining part of their character are laughable too? gay rights activists? i don't agree with their views, but animal rights people too.. and of course fascists, neo-nazis and racists often regard their politics as a major component of who they are.
i don't really get your point alex, unless you're just belittling people who believe in stuff, probably whilst muttering something about middle class students trying to annoy daddy yawn
What I mean is, people who have decided
to parade their belief in ideals that are already accepted by virtually everyone (in our society at any rate) as if they are somehow leading the progressive vanguard.
It's just a little one dimensional.
I'm not referring to people whose day-to-day life and/or job involves working for Stonewall/ANL/Rape Crisis or any other third sector organisation dedicated to a particular minority group.
I'm not belittling the issues involved either, just questioning why some feel the need to highlight the obvious.
is it though?
homophobia is still widely accepted, and in some areas / communities so is racism
Do you think they'd hold the anti racism event in Barking or Tower Hamlets?
How about an anti homophobia festival in Bradford?
Preaching to the converted achieves little other than the opportunity for some mutual back slapping...and for what? For supporting ideals that 99% of people are already firmly behind!
the Love Music Hate Racism Carnival on Sunday was in Tower Hamlets, Alex...
99%? Lol, if only. Yeah it's mutual back slapping. It's also a nice day out and helps bring diverse communities a little bit together. I don't get what your problem is...
how many diverse communities
were represented?
Burnley then?
they tried a few years ago
http://www.leeds365.co.uk/anl.htm
if their beliefs were
'accepted by virtually everyone' I doubt there'd be a BNP and that it would actually pick up a substantial number of votes.
This is a list of BNP councillors - there are 46 of them. http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=70503
I think that you mean 'virtually everyone' who posts on DiS, and the studenty, music loving, probably middle class communities that a lot of us are probably part of. I don't think you should restrict such people from being actively anti racist, on the basis that they don't have much on their doorsteps to fight against. Organisations such as LMHR need numbers, need bodies to prove that they have people on their side. They need to be seen to have a substantial amount of people on their side to be effective. Nobody is counting how many of those people actually live in Burnley.
46 councillors nationwide is FUCK ALL.
they are on target for 5% of the London vote
which isn't fuck all is it?
With respect, yes it is.
Compare that to what far more offensive parties poll in other major European countries and it really isn't very much at all.
so your argument is that other countries are worse?
The thrust of my argument isn't simply that
the problem is worse elsewhere, but that support for the BNP is out of all proportion to the debate that surrounds it.
or rather that the debate that surrounds the BNP is
out of all proportion to their real world support.
well, yes
but i do wonder if we didn't have such an unfair electoral system and anti-democratic hate speech laws, how well they would really do..
this just makes me think of BIOHAZARD!!!
Well duh
they say it to show that they actively disagree with something (racism in this case) and to show that they are not as apathetic about it as most people are, and probably hoping to make people more aware of their own thoughts about the issue at the same time.
and what vikram said.
You've missed the point...........
really
I've read your post a few times. I think maybe you've missed a point or two....
listen
if it's obvious for you then that's good. it's not obvious for everyone, hence some people still feel the need to go on and on about it to raise awareness.
You're saying racism being bad isn't obvious to everyone?
Seriously?
well there ARE racists out there
but I'm guessing that's not what you meant. I think the main issue is that there are people who just don't give a fuck, which is probably the issue that these "self idenitified anti-racists" want to address. To make people think about it more.
By which I mean everybody knows racism's a bad thing.
Hence the BNP's continued denials of being racists.
I mean there's a lot of dispute about what racism is, and a lot of people deny being racist when they probably are but everyone knows racism's considered unacceptable.
"Hence the BNP's continues denials of being racists"
they know that the word racism has a lot of negativity attached to it, and hope to avoid being labelled as racists in order to get people's attention and be taken seriously. Their ideas are still the same, right?
Yes.
But the point is, if they're insisitng they aren't racist then protesting against them as "racists" will have no effect on the supporters as the supporters will say "well, they're not racists".
Since the BNP have changed their label, the anti-BNP campaigners need to do the same.
I can see your point
but as I have been arguing, the main targets of such campaigning are probably not the already "converted" in either direction, but the vast majority of people who stand in the middle of it and stare blankly in front of them, refusing (or simply not bothering) to take a stand. See the difference? And the rhetorics of continuing to call them racists are aimed at those same people - the BNP and their supporters already know they're racists, no matter how desperate they are to convince anyone else that they are not. To put it quite simply, they know that the term racism doesn't sell, doesn't get them votes, so they try to avoid it. The anti-racists are using it for those exact reasons.
I don't know though, there are plenty of mildly racist people about
who genuinely DON'T believe they are anything of the sort.
"I have nothing against multiculturalism, I have black friends, but I think immigrants need firmer controls". You know the type.
being illiberal on immigration isn't necessarily racist
mildly or not
I actually think this is much of the problem.
i.e. the tendency of some anti-racists to group a whole lot of things under the bracket of 'racism' that don't really fit (being anti-immigration being a big one).
And the danger is people then think "well if I'm being called a racist 'cos of something that isn't really racism then maybe the BNP are being falsely accused too". And then start to consider voting for them...
In 2008, anyone over the age of about 13 who
doesn't realise that racism is totally unacceptable has the type of prejudice that no amount of well meaning activism is going to placate.
They'll already be aware that their views are unacceptable.
First of all
I was talking more about the apathetics who just don't think it matters, than actual racists.
Secondly, if people like those weren't around to stand in a crowd looking silly chanting FUCK THE BNP or whatever, then who would be around to make it glaringly obvious that racism IS an unwanted thing in our society? Cause people who shrug it all of certainly aren't going to send out any kind of message to anyone.
Most peoples profiles on here
have a list of their favourite bands oin them.
Also see myspace and facebook.
what?
People have lots of silly little ways of
identifying themsleves/personalities.
some wear name badges
Apathy cannot be equated to racism though, can it?
Those people chanting 'Fuck the BNP' were quite ridiculous, what did they achieve?
Voicing their disapproval of the BNP amongst a crowd of people who all shared that same disapproval, great guys...good job. It's yobbish and undignified.
The people who chanted 'Ban the BNP' were even worse, hmmm....voicing support for the wholesale banning of a legal political party? Hardly democratic, is it?
There are better ways of making the point.
Not equated
but if racism (or any theory or concept) is really that obviously unacceptable then how can apathy towards that issue be any more accepted? If we all think racism is so bad then why don't more of us take it more seriously?
They might not have achieved much that can be measured in numbers and statistics but like I said, they do at least give out the message that they still fucking care. And frankly I find it amazing how you can call someone "yobbish and undignified" for standing up for something they believe strongly in. And I hope you realise that they think all of us are just as silly.
And obviously wanting to ban the BNP simply because they disagree is stupid and contradictory and all of those things.
What's more frankly I think they're in danger of becoming the problem more than the solution.
Ultimately the resurgence of extreme right-wing politics at the moment is because people feel the mainstream political parties are stifling debate and rightly or wrongly feel like they're being told what they have to think about immigration, cultural relavatism etc. without being allowed to express their own views or deviate from the party line.
Ultimately mass get-togethers saying racism is bad are all well and good but they are basically telling people what to think without explaining why to think it. And the stupid thing is anti-racism, egalitarianism, respect for other cultures and respect for human rights of others are all excellent causes that people SHOULD be able to successfully argue for every single time. And the failure to do this and tendency to instead chant as a mass "it's bad, don't do it" leads to the kind of alienation that leads to sensible people pursuing extreme policies.
I totally agree.
ii agree that the ANL are a pretty anti-democratic organisation
it's a pity that those most likely to organise events like this, tend to be the most extreme in their views
good points in your second paragraph
although surely the "tendency to instead chant as a mass "it's bad, don't do it" leads to the kind of alienation that leads to sensible people pursuing extreme policies" can work the other way as well.
That said, I just think it's better that they are at least there than no one doing anything because it's not their ideal form of expression.
I'm not so sure.
I see you're way of thinking but don't necessarily think taking a form of action is always better than taking no action at all.
I quite angry about this subject area 'cos I increasingly get the impression that, having achieved so much from the sixties through to the nienties, we're starting to lose the battle on racism a bit and I do think a large part of the reason for this is the debate hasn't been moved on from the language/actions of the seventies (when racism really was a common and open thing). Ultimately the truth is that the extreme right have moved their tactics onto a much more subtle footing and have done so with some success and essentially the anti-racism movemnet needs to do the same.
*I get quite angry.
I can agree with that
intolerance
is intolerance. whether against races or against beliefs.
a brief tale
(this happened to me) Was given an Anti-Nazi League sticker 'black and white unite' on entering a gig at the Roadhouse a few years ago (Edan I think it was). Stuck it on my t-shirt as I agree with the sentiment. On leaving the venue someone chucked some rubbish out of their car window at me and my girlfriend, which hit us. I ran after the car, screaming abuse and it stopped and I ending up having a scuffle with two guys(I got a bit battered), one black, one asian. Was still wearing my 'black and white unite' sticker. It got a bit of my blood on it.
.
http://www.last.fm/group/Anti-Rape
when you say
it's 'like declaring yourself an anti-rapist', it's not. i don't know anyone that publicly advocates rape, but i know plenty of people that are openly racist.
That group deserves more members