On my way to work this morning, I saw a sticker on the tube that said 'NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR!'.
This made me giggle of course.
When I got to work I read this article on the Telegraph website: http://tinyurl.com/6mm5j6
I'm inclined to agree with it. I think it's no longer 'unacceptable' to be posh or privately educated ir come from the Home Counties.
The fact is, the Labour Party tried so hard to play the class card during the Mayoral election, espousing that Ken was the only person who could represent 'real peeople', and it didn't matter a jot. Boris with his toff hair, his toff voice and toff upbringing still romped home.
I think that there has been a shift. The working classes no longer despise the middle and upper classes, they no longer which to distance themselves from societies upper eschelons, they aspire to be a part of it. And for that, you can thank Thatcher.
im still upset you dont play enough cod4
.
Nah, we still hate you.
no, i think people want money.
Why don't you get a blog?
*sang in to the tune of "Why Don't You Get A Job" by the Offspring*
:D
youre right, it is no longer acceptable to be from the home counties
they smell of wee
An the inevitable corrections:
*or come from the Home Counties
*'real people'
*wish to distnace themselves
* And
The perception of classes and conflict has changed
but there is still a great deal of inequality that is drawn along financial and so usually class lines
Yeah, this.
I think the main difference is there's been a lot more movement within the classes in the last 100 years so the idea of a 'class war' has become less of a realistic idea.
the class system has shifted
i think home owner vs home renter is the new scaling
^ The property apartheid!
I'm inclined to agree.
Cherie Blair, Billy Bragg and Traynor........
are the last three people who regard themselves as working class.
The first two are millionaires though which rather weakens their position, Traynor probably is too, I reckon he's a slumlord.
Macca and Noel Gallagher both regard themselves as Working Class
which I find just as dubious. I don't think you can just say it's about your 'roots'. It's surely about where you are right now too.
I agree with THEO!
Remember this day :D
Well I was already agreeing with YOU!
The four horsemen are on their way...
Agreeing with an agreement?
FURIOUS AGREEMENT!
:D
paul mccartney does not regard himself as working class
Oh, and PLEASE don't automatically
associate wealth with class.
Its unavoidable though
The criteria that people need to fulfill in order to be considered middle class (and not 'classy' or sophisticated) can only be achieved with wealth
what is the purpose of class systems if it ignores wealth?
I am clearly aware that there is often a link.
I am just saying that it is not automatic. You can't buy class.
Being middle class
does not equal having class
of course not
Nope. Class is usually about education and connections as much as wealth, I'd say.
I think the London Mayoral election is a bubious case you make
As still the inner city voted Ken, and the outer suburbs Boris. Plus also I never heard anyone from an official Labour source say that - I think their angle was more that he cared about London more, which is suppose could be a veiled dig, but it isn't overt based on their track records.
I think that society has become a lot more egalitarian in the last 10-15 years, but class war as such isn't dead. Conversely where as before people didn't like "posh" people as it were, I think there is a worrying large and ever increasing underclass in society that no one gives a shit about, and in fact increasingly malevolent towards.
Social mobility down, tax burden up
property less affordable than ever.
Up the workers!
Cunt off dickwad
Haha! You're a sorry little flange of a man, aren't you?
I was just countering your point re: Britain being more egalitarian in 2008.
Not simply because it was YOUR point, but because I happen to disagree.
You're incapable of accepting dissenting views.
I'm perfectly capable of accepting differing views
But you proffered no hypothesis, just a list of statements designed to antagonise me, and frankly, you're really beginning to bore me rigid.
I'm a flange of a man, yet you've never met me? Wasn't that your point yesterday - how can you pass judgement on someone who you've never met?
I genuinely think you're an ok guy, but when it comes to politics you seem to follow this formula
-Write something designed to wind people up
-People go oh you're really getting boring winding us up
-HAHA! (insert insult) You're all such intellectual lightweights! I win!
It's really tedious man
...and I would have gotten away with it
too if it wasn't for you meddlin' DiSers!
It was the poor quality holographic projection
of a ghost what gave it away
*Removes Norman Tebbit horror mask*
Bamos: 'look it's old man Rivers from the amusement arcade!'
^ This
The class war seems to have shifted to conflict between the working class and the underclass that seems to have emerged underneath them; those who do not work, live off benefits etc (the number of people this class includes largely depends on which newspaper's bollocks you choose to believe).
Its a pseudo-Functionalists, Marx-hating Capitalist's wet dream; the poor point the finger at eachother while they continue to financially rape the world.
I'm not sure about the term 'underclass'.
I used to think that but then friends of mine convinced me that it is a really derogatory sort of term for people.
I think it is sort of self-defeating as a term and doesn't help anyone.
Its a term of convenience
I'll call them 'fuzzywilkins' if you'd prefer.
It's not a term I'd enjoy using
But it's what they're becoming sadly from a societal point of view.
Stop wetting your bed Theo.
They are an undercalss. They have done nothing to earn society's respect, so offending them or being derrogatory toward them isn't a problem.
Don't worry.
I used your bed this time. It didn't seem to matter, though, as you already had rubber sheets...
:D
forgive me for being stupid but how is class defined?
how much you earn?what part of the country you are from?
Wealth, education, home owner status etc
i think my favourite class definition
was put forward by a sociologist called Bourdieu in the 70s. he believes that class is defined by your taste, and in the things you consume such as literature, music etc
^i like this
I remember someone telling me........
Working Class: Live on an estate
Middle Class: Drive an estate
Upper Class: Own a country estate!
But, that was about 20 years ago and it was bollocks then, even more so today.
^this is my new favourite class definition
hooray henry!
Class War, the organisation,
were always tedious and out of touch. They fed on a legitimate concern of the time - the use of the police as a political weapon under Thatcher - but just used the issue as an excuse for a punch up. Much like Animal Rights activists do today.
class is still an issue today
and it always will be, perhaps not as big as it once was, but it is still massive
In my view
There are still loads of class differences. I believe there are discrepancies in how you are treated by the police, education system, etc depending on what class you are perceived to be from. However, there no longer seems to be anyone protesting about it. So no class war, but maybe there should be.
I hate war, so I'm not going to start a revolution, but wish someone would.
I found the article slightly disturbing
in that, without realising it, it explained precisely why the BNP have got an assembly seat and highlighted a problem that's going to cast a shadow over politics for the forseeable future i.e the claim that "there isn't a working-class".
This is nonsense. There is a working-class and it's one that gets increasingly ignored by the media and, more worryingly, politicians. Hence numerous working-class people who are aware they are marginalised, their views ignored and their needs uncatered for by modern politics, who get drawn to extreme political movements.
Certainly we're living in a time where it's more 'fashionable' to admire the upper-classes and where the objects of scorn are "chavs", "pikeys" or whatever stick people want to beat working-class people with on that particular day.
If Class War is over, it's largley 'cos those for whom the system isn't working no longer have a voice.
Is it more fashionable?
I was under the impression that the middle classes were clamouring for some ghetto props, frequenting over-priced shitholes in Hoxton and buying up as much property as possible in Camden.
Maybe we should just all swap places for a day.
The reason they don't have a voice
is the insidious argument that there's no point in voting because all parties are the same.
Don't believe this unless you want to become disempowered.
You'll rarely find middle class people not voting.
It wasn't that long ago that those who didn't own a property were not entitled to vote. And women have only been entitled to vote since about 1926.
Life was even more appalling for the working class when politicians didn't have to impress them. it's still pretty bad now, because the uneducated believe the fashionable view that there's no point in voting.
But if you're white and working-class all parties are the same.
All of them want to cut taxes for big business, expand the free markets and all of them target the same middle-class voters (who obviously as a result will vote). All three main political parties (and certainly Labour and Conservative) are broadly the same in terms of their basic policies and none of those policies have anything to with improving the lot of the worst off in society.
Since Labour went 'new' and abandoned Socialism there has been no political party making any attempt at policies that benefit working-class voters. And it becomes this vicious cycle where working-class people don't vote so politicans don't try to win their vote so because no politician gives a fuck about the working class vote, many of the working-class won't vote.
To say "you'll rarely find middle-class people not voting" without thinking about who political policies are designed to appeal to is utterly naive.
PS I presume someone'll sooner or later point out my use of "white" in the subject header.
This is meant in terms of the fact that the three main parties do have slightly different policies on race relations/immigration (not that all immigrants would be non-white or that all non-white people would be immigrants of course) and multi-culturalism so I suspect if you're non-white and working-class there would be enough difference to influence which party you chose to vote for, although at the same time you'd essentially be equally as alienated as white working-class voters.
You're problem is that you simply don't see black people.
They're invisible to you.
It's more naive
to be persuaded not to vote. For whatever reason. You lose your vote, you lose your tool to effect change.
Think about it. Who benefits by persuading the working class there's no point in voting?
You'll rarely find middle class people not voting, because a vote is power. The Middle classes are educated to understand about power in the way working classes are not. If you listen to kids who go to fee paying schools, they often come out with the sentiment that they are being educated to be the leaders and forerunners of the country.
The working class should not disenfranchise themselves, if they don't like the way no one represents them in politics there are democratic ways of allowing their voices and needs to be heard. Not voting, is just like sulking.
I'm not justifying not voting here
simply explaining why people don't.
And the question of who benefits is whichever fringe group makes a specific attempt to win the votes of those disenfranchised voters. Currently there's no real left-wing party doing this with any success and this leaves only the British National Party. Who, obviously most people would rather didn't get votes at all, which is precisely why the mainstream parties need to act on the situation.
You must think I'm naive
if you think you need to explain to me the reasons why people decide not to vote. However, rest assured, I've asked people and listened to their reasons. Their arguments come straight from views espoused by the media.
I'm just saying, if the working class don't feel they have a voice, then it's because now they've stopped voting, no one needs to court favour with their points of view. Voters have to take back power and control by using their vote.
I do see what your saying and I was probably unfair saying you were naive
but it's a chicken & egg situation. And it's less clear cut than your making out whether
a) Working-class people stopped voting and SO politicans don't take their views into consideration
or
b) Working-class people stoped voting BECAUSE politicians don't take their views into consideration.
Probably b
but the answer is not a
Case solved!
barriers allow different groups to be on different sides from time to time
It used to be that old money looked down on new money whilst whoring itself to accept it whilst secretly despising it.
nOW m0ney and wealth are assumed to be largely classless as many new millionairres are around, ones whose wealth has not depended on several generations previous having had an estate (etc)
However just because the demographic catchment for people who are 'top people' and get to make all the decisions might have changed doesnt mean that most of them might be there cos of ruthlessness or by concentrating less on being a human being, doesnt mean that they arnt just as seperated from feeling empathy with ordinary poor people.
As always you fail to grasp reality.
Instead clutching at some recogognised small facet of fact triumphantly and blow it all round the place hoping the walls of socialism will crumble.
You fail to recognise that people on here say things you find socialist yet they might not care about the word socialism, for them the concern is oppression and unfairness and undeserved inequality. As long as these exist people will still say things, that to you, sounds like socialism.
Its more fundamental than that, its about unfair inequality, not picking sides, thats your game
i don't really have an opinion
but because you think class war's dead, i think it's still alive
vis:
CLASS WAR!
as long as the 'haves' use their power
to continue to oppress the 'havenots' and ensure they maintain being 'haves' then there will always be classwar.
youre dead