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Finite amount of good music

22 votes
?
by MelesMeles

So there must technically be a finite amount of good songs that there can be, right? I mean, even the sounds between the notes, there is a finite amount of. The same goes for words.

So, I guess my question is: can anyone work out:

a) The number of possible songs in this universe of sensory perception of ours
b) The percentage of existing songs which is good, thus giving us a general idea of how much music might be worth listening to

Or wait, does the whole concept of length just scupper it? (or at least make it ridiculously complicated)

MelesMeles | 08 May '08, 21:53 | Send note | Report this | Reply

I always ponder this.

It genuinely depresses me. I think all the fantastic melodies are very quickly drying up. Most good melodies these days sound a lot like good melodies that have preceded it.


My calculations reveal

a) 4,095,029,405,466
b) 6%

I was depressed by the percentage, but the amount is giving me hope. 6% of that is 245,701,764,327.96. Should keep us plugging for a while!

I could tell you my methods, but then I'd have to kill you.

(This does include remixes, by the way.)


i reckon about 30% of songs are "pretty good"

and 0.1% are "groin-grabbingly transcendent"

not bad really


On a more serious note, are you including classical music

Because that's been around for, like, FOREVER.

This doesn't stop popular music nicking bits though, so maybe sufficient recycling can produce something new? I'm thinking "Whiter Shade of Pale", for example.


no

because these days, a "song" can be as much about HOW the notes are presented as much as WHAT the notes are.


To be honest

There are SO many people in the world, and SO many instruments and technological innovations, that the same song could be sung in different ways by different people and a fair amount would be mindblowing for different reasons. Look at the sheer amount of amazing Bob Dylan covers, for gods sake. And, don't forget, we're not born with the knowledge of every song ever written! Two people, could, theoretically, come up with the same idea completely independently (look at all the so-called "first punk bands"), but even that doesn't mean they would sound the same. So basically there'll be DiS in 50 years time and they'll be having the same arguments.


.

I thought this when I was about 10 and am pleased to say that I've been proved wrong thousands of times over!
There will be pPeople who haven't been born yet will surely make music that will blow my mind!


Cantor's Continuum problem innit

there's an infinite number of songs (or at least infinty alef one, not absolute infinity). A song can last as long as time itself. Changing the note a second before the end of time, two seconds before, etc etc creates different songs.


Good music is good music

and even if you listen to classical music, there's amazing medoldies and lead lines.

Everything in music has been done. Doesn't mean it can't be done better or you'll get sick of it.

The last bit of original music must have been when dance first started.


^ Sorry...

WHAT?


CAN'T YOU READ

?


Yes

I can

But it doesn't make any sense. Sorry.


Erm, it does make sense...

He's saying that, really, there's no such thing as "original" music... everything has been done and everything that will come is a variation on a theme.


I don't

think so - also

"The last bit of original music must have been when dance first started."

nah.


There is a finite number of good songs

in the same way there is a finite number of possible lottery number combinations. I wouldn't worry about it.


^ Technically not true

Take one good song. Add an extra second on to the last note. Still good? Yes. So that's two good songs. Halve that extra note - that's 3. Halve that halved extra note... etc etc. Can easily make an infinite number of songs.


Well, you'll run into the whole Zeno's paradox thing there.

And anyway, since the question specified "universe of sensory perception", the number of songs you could produce using that method is limited by the physical restrictions of our sensory organs. There will come a point where the halving of the halving of the halving of the halving will become imperceptible, and hence outside the question.


In that case...

a rough answer would surely be our average life expectancy divided by the smallest amount of time which our 'sensory perceptionan' could detect a note.

Depending of course on the definition of a 'song'


and then all the combinations and permutations of notes

for that number multiplied by the population...


Stupid question

You're implying that you can define good, you can't. So therefore it's pointless to speculate.


Even if you admit total subjectivity ...

... you can define good for yourself. So you could arrive at your own answer, I suppose.


Blah

If you're going to get into halving notes as changing a song then you might aswell say the ambience around you when you listen to a song is adding to the number of possible songs. Everytime you listen to a song there are different sounds around you accentuating somebits or detracting from others. You'd probably say this is not part of a song anymore than a chair is part of a table because it's in the same room, so what are you taking as the deciding factor in a song, bits that sound the same each time? (ok so that rules out live music entirely) Or maybe it's the fact that an intention or human will was used to create these sounds, somebody wanted you to hear it this way? Which raises an interesting question, is the music really any different because it was made by a person, maybe really what we are after is intent and not the sound at all.


But does intent inhere in an object?

Assuming a song is a "sonic object".

I agree that "song" is not just a collection of noises, and yet in can be: found-sound plays a large part in quite of lot of music.

For analogy, look at the urinal that Marcel Duchamp presented as art. It was art, and yet it wouldn't have been if you'd come across it (or pissed into it ...) in a toilet.

So, as you were saying, for a song to be a song it needs to be presented as such by an artist. What makes it a song is not just the properties of the object itself, but what is done with it: a thing external to a song.

(Which is, rather neatly, sort of what I wrote my dissertation on.)

A question: suppose you find a tree somewhere with a certain arrangement of holes in it such that, when the wind blew, it sounded exactly like Jeff Buckley singing "Hallelujah". Would you be listening to a song?


You're probably right...

... i was just using that argument as ruse to work-up to the 69 Love Songs pay off.

It didn't really work.


Worth it though!

I LOL'd.


Blah 2

That's an interesting analogy for sure and a difficult one to give a decisive answer on. To counter my own point, how much intent is in songs anyway? It's pretty hard to know if a musician sweated over the precise length transition of chords in his 'song' or whether his muscle memory causes him to fiddle around in a certain key, and stumble across something to say "hey that's really good!". Writting music in my experience is a mixture of the two. Can you really claim it's your song if you just stumble accorss a section that just works? You'd just be hearing back to yourself the sounds created by hand movements you are familiar with and then copying them. In terms of playing the guitar I think tactile and visual cues are important aswell as sound, you remember a chord as looking a certain way on the fretboard and feeling a certain way etc. I'm rambling anyway so I guess the short answer is it's down to the individual as to what they want to be a song and what is just found sound as you say.


hmm

Don't really know anything about Johnny Ball other than what I just wiki'd. So I guess that's a "no" and a "why?"


You can't have an infinite number of songs

unless there was an infinite number of notes.

You can't make something infinite out of something limited.

POINDEXTER!


Technically

there are an infinite number of notes.


And the surface area of the mobius strip...

am i right Bamnan?...

Am i right??


llkxjqls

Yes you can, pretty much anyway. It's not just about notes. When you factor in words, instruments, length... other variables... It probably becomes pretty close to infinite. It's not just about notes. Besides, you can have all kinds of inbetween notes... you don't have to use a scale. This debate is fucking stupid.


Damned subjectivity!

Always getting in the way.

I adapted the question from a philosophy paper I read once, where an ant walks across a beach in a funny way and the tracks exactly resemble a picture of Winston Churchill.

The writer argues that this doesn't constitute "a picture of Winston Churchill by the ant", as the ant had no idea what a "Winston Churchill" was, and couldn't possibly have intended to depict him. Similarly my tree, I think, isn't singing a song. It's just making a noise that exactly resembles a song.

Which is a roundabout way of saying I agree, though I think it's the intention of making a song that matters, regardless of the hours spent sweating over it.

Indeed, coming back to good/bad songs, sometimes less work is more quality. Teenage Kicks pisses all over Tubular Bells. Yet it would seem bit harsh to suggest that there was less intent in Teenage Kicks, just because it didn't take months of painstakingly precise work to put together.


I really love tubular bells :(

still it doesn't spiol your point


doesn't

Anybody like just listening to records anymore? What a stupid debate.


Well yes of course

I like listening to music but I'm at work at the moment with little to do and there's nothing wrong with an in depth (but ultimately pointless) debate every once in a while.


perhaps, but...

why think about it? The fact is there is far more good music out there than any one person could ever listen to in an entire lifetime - and in the span of that lifetime, far more would be made on top of that.

35000 albums are released a year in America. If that = 35000 hours, well there are only 8760 hours in a year! So it'd take 4 years of non-stop (no sleep) listening to hear all that just once. Of course, a lot of it would be shite - but then think about all the good music that a) doesn't get released in America in one year for various reasons, and b) has already been released from the last few hundred years (or more specifically, last 50) that you have never heard. It's mind-boggling. In reality, on our death-beds we'll all still be saying "oh but I never got round to listening to that [band x] album yet!"


Really?

Then how will I find time to listen to them all?

I'm missing out on Justin!


Pointless thread really.

-You can't define good, it's subjective.
-There's almost an unlimited amount of song possibilities, definitley more than all of us could listen to in our life times combined.


One last time ...

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS SUBJECTIVE DOESN'T MEAN IT CAN'T BE DEFINED! IT JUST MEANS THAT THE DEFINITION MUST MAKE MENTION OF THAT SUBJECTIVITY!


Just because we can't experience something

doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work stuff out about it.

See: fourth-dimensional space.


basil ftw


'Groin-grabbingly descendant'?

YOINK.

For every song I bet there's someone who likes it. EVERY SONG HAS A LOBSTER.


music


Will

we ever run dry of song material, melodies, lyrics etc.

Or will the universe just swallow itself?