So, Batman. It happened. There were car chases and fist fights and explosions and bits with people hanging off tall stuff and everything you'd expect. It was all edited very fast and choppy with bits designed to stimulate suspense and gasp-worthy motorbike rides and all that, and the Dark Knight modern mythology stapled onto it.
And hell! Even a bit of game theory and a light hearted wibble about morality and order and chaos borrow from Seven. Along with Morgan Freeman.
But come on, really now. It's just a load of bollocks really isn't it. Like The Golden Compass was. Like Harry Potter 17: The Stenographer's Trumpet and Die Hard 7: Exploding Dirty Vests In Space will be soon. A couple of cast changes, lose the baddy's makeup and Apple-F-replace a few names in the script and it could have been James Bond 43756 instead.
And being in the audience - the coming together of people for no particular reason. Just because... it's what people do of an evening. So unrewarding. They clapped at the end. Sigh.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
ALEC
hello!
heyy ;)
how are you?
Yeah don't mind my thread, JEEZ
hey brainlove
how YOU doiinnn' :)
pixar is the pits??!
Yeah.
Stupid things run around and then we all smile at the end.
insane!
all of them??
That's basically what happens though.
In all of them.
Oh and the moral of the stories: if you're nice, it doesn't matter WHAT you look like.
wall.e is a pretty dark character
he has undertones of norman bates
Hahahaha
And my take on it is: these sorts of things never feel like big events to me because I always seem to completely miss the hype for big mainstream things because I'm just that cool, wow.
i'm obamawesome
how are you?
gooood
the internet isn't as good tonight as it was last night. not DiS specifically. no-one to talk to
aww
well i hope i'm helping alleviate the lack of people.
through being here.
for you
in these dark times
yes thank you
i only spoke to one of my friends all day. but he sent me that GIANTSNAKE thing. i stripped the front room though. you do anything productive?
i read 50 pages of Hitler and Stalin: parallel lives
only 1,000 more to go, so i think that's progress.
I am also learning German with some language program.
GREAT SUCCESS!
BIG WIN
why are you reading a very long history book? is it to do with LEARNING? did you say you were going to oxford next year?
yes it's to do with LEARNING
I don't know whether I shall apply to Oxford. If you're not sure if you want to go you probably shouldn't apply right?
are you doing any learning yourself?
have you not applied yet?
you're going into year 13? i didn't put much thought into applying for stuff, i just chose some that were grades i could get without trying very hard. because i was dickhead at school.
i'm doing english lit, so whenever i read i'm learning
ALEC
What?
have you seen wall.e
Hell no.
Pixar is the pits.
your decision
well youre just no fun, huh
Troof
First Mark Kermode casts doubts on it
now Brainlove ... I'm starting to think I definitely made the right decision by not rushing out to see this immediately like so many people I know did.
It's a summer action blockbuster
what were you expecting?
You miss my point Josh.
wait!
people clapped?
The only time I've ever seen that happen was when I went to Newcastle United's official club screening of Goal and the stars, producers, director, writers and players were in the room.
Even then it felt a bit odd - like you sort of had to be clapping and didn't dare be the first to stop.
I didn't clap.
I blinked and thought, what the fuck are they clapping for, is this the fucking premiere or something?
Most people are impressed
by fast things. Maybe you should just lower your 'impressed' standards?
People around me behaved in ways I couldn't relate too.
Like when Batman did a wheely on his stupid motorbike, male people jumped around in their seats going "YEAH!" while female people giggled at their awesome bravado and maleness. And I was like..
Oh shit, wait a minute, I'm going down that detached misanthropic snob path again, that's not a good path, dammit.
It's a good path to take in a cinema
because nobody can see you doing the sigh/snarl thing.
Hopefully they don't notice you hiding your face in thinly disguised disgust either.
NOTE:
This only happened a few times, e.g. every time Batman spoke in that stupid voice and a few Harvey Dent Darth-Vader-NOOOOOO type bits.
Generally, this was a fastpacedwellmadethrillingactionmovieTM
But the joke was the ace
christian bales batman talking was always going to be a joke, right
surely all Dent's and wayne's/batman's big macho talk from their huge ruggedly macho faces was deliberately like that to show how the joker could manipulate two such forceful characatures....at least thats how I was able to read it....i went with my kids and they enjoyed it, as did Mrs Knees.......maybe that makes me lucky that i can see films not just from my own highly refined sensibility
I gave Borat a standing ovation
but I was the only one. Everyone must have thought I was mental.
They all left you hanging huh?
Exactly
And then I was like 'COME ON, YOU FUCKING WANKERS. THAT WAS AMAZING.' and still nothing.
People clap all the way through Mamma Mia, and give it a standing ovation at the end.
The freaks.
WEIRD.
Is this about Christmas?
As I understand it from friends who have seen it
it really is a great film. There is enough good characters and interesting plot points as well as well shot and technically amazing. It might not reinvent the film making industry, but it sure as hell perfects the genre of comic book adaptations.
What, might I ask, were you expecting john? Would you have enjoyed it if iy was any different?
Also, I agree with the clapping. Add pilots landing planes to the list too.
i wouldnt worry about it
he tends to say pretty silly stuff about films
as if it could be a better adaptation than
American Splendor
i once saw this comic book thing starring one of the culkin brothers
it was a coming of age film where every now and again the story dissolved into the irl people being characters in some comic book trying to overcome some sorta evil, it was really good, i have no idea what it was called and find no trace of it anywhere, im worried i imagined it
Pagemaster?
It's not about what I was expecting,
I'm analysing the experience is all. The blockbuster film experience, which has become the inescapable mass cultural event experience. On the sides of buses, on the radio, on the TV every break, on the MySpace sign-in page. And everyone is like... "LO! Something to latch on to for a bit! PHEW!"
"They clapped at the end. Sigh."
God. I thought they only did that in the US.
As for this film, I'm with you. I've never seen it, but I know its going to leave me cold.
you cant reference him now John
he's officially racist.
Morgan Freeman???????
???????????
THINK ABOUT IT.
I can't believe Morgan Freeman is a racist.
I'm calling Kele to go round and sort him out. With Piehead Kaiser Shitbag.
Has this thread peaked out already?
Damn, I don't have any closure on the feeling alienated from Western culture thing yet.
I think everybody has exhausted every way to express
"oh, here we go again, john brainlove shows disdain of anything vaguely "mainstream" again and tries to attatch significance to what essentially is a teenage "fuck the man" type attitude. What's for dinner?"
PHWWOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
:)
It's ok, it don't have to be kafka to be enjoyable
you don't have to be a repressed genuis 24 hours a day. watch batman and jackass and have a coke.
And don't attempt to analyse the experience
lest some jumped up sarcastic little internet punk attempt to shoot down any debate whilst posturing for the message board put down of the 2008 awards.
Goodness, you're so hard bitten and next level.
Who needs to think and talk when we've got you around knowing everything for us.
Pretty much.
I'm martbowski 2.0 - now with added extraneous personality.
Yeah man
doing down pop culture is so totally over. This chump read No Logo and watched Bill Hicks and thinks he grew a brain *snort* what a loser, anti-capitalism is like totally 2002.
I really don't think batman is the aspect of pop culture you should be most worried about.
And you're not being anti-capitalist, you ARE in fact being a snob. Soz boz.
Is this thread called "the aspect of pop culture I'm most worried about"?
No.
Stop yapping, sunshine.
I don' get it
are you saying this about all "mainstream" films, or just some?
Mmmm
Not even films really. I was thinking about the heightened role that mass cultural events have in people's live in the post Big Brother kind of way - it's what everyone talks about, it's what people look forward to... it's like the fabric of society is a certain way. And the quality of most of it really is appalling. It's horrid, slick box-ticking rubbish. It makes me feel uncomfortable to think that with all the money and technology and knowledge that's available in the INformation Age we're living in, the materials people are taking in is so... unchallenging.
I mean, I drink cokes and I watch Peep Show and I shop on the high street. I'm not on a crusade or anything. I'm just describing a kind of empty feeling I got after tonight. And a few times before when getting swept up in this kind of stuff. Like... it's filling the time, but it's ultimately really bad pulp material that temporarily has this heightened importance.
not everyone wants to be challenged everytime they go in a cinema
and if you do why dont you approach it like that regardless of what it is, its not that hard, do you not think something like this that has become a cultural event is interesting in itself for that reason
i think youre being overly cynical about the 'slick box ticking rubbish', i mean, so what, people go see things that other people they know go and see so they can talk about them, people go to the cinema to be entertained
i think its quite a good thing that in hollywood terms a relatively leftfield director like christopher nolan is being allowed to make films like that
I do think it's interesting for that reason,
hence the thread.
I know not everyone wants to be challenged all the time, and that light hearted entertainment has it's place, I'm just questioning the place! You know, it's a fairly well documented conundrum - why are more people voting in Strictly Come Dancing than in the general election territory.
Batman was a series of set pieces intersperses with supposedly intense sections.
You know - we zoom into a tower block. Somewhere in it, the bad guy lurks, and our hero must get to him. Five tussles and fights with guards on different floors and stairwells later, some fighty bits and a confrontation bit in which some new exciting tool is employed, but for whatever reason everyone ends up getting away unscathed so that the scene can be repeated with different variables. Say, on a highway, with new toys.
Somewhere along the way, a vague sense of distopia is injected to make it seem relevant.
It's weird. It's an empty shell format. That's what I mean by box ticking. So stunningly vacuous is pretty much every way, that enjoyment of the film requires a kind of suspension of standards that I'm not even willing to try.
Pft
It was alright actually. I mean, as a piece of that genre, it was the best one I've seen by far. Maybe that's why people clapped, because in a pond of shit it is the biggest, shiniest shit.
I think I could get that as a quote on the DVD box.
"In a pond of shit it is the biggest, shiniest shit."
i actually dunno whether i can respond to a lot of that not having seen the film
however, i think if you insist on breaking things down to 'just a series of setpieces interspersed with supposedly intense sections' you end up not enjoying anything. thats how a film like that works and it doesnt necessarily make it less interesting, and its not like more challenging things arent out there, i dont know though, were the supposedly intense sections not interesting? do you know think its a good thing that something like game theory is introduced to 'the masses' through stuff like this? or indeed is it not interesting that something like that gets introduced to a generic format like the comic book movie. i watched the postman with kevin costner the other week and was surprised it was actually relatively interesting and enjoyable because of similar things.
i dunno though, i mean, i have this friend who is really into these comics, batman and such like, and he's spent much time explaining to me in great detail the morality and structure of the worlds in these comics, and to be fair it all sounds relatively complex and interesting in its own way. one element of how this becomes interesting in relation to the dark knight is how the film reimagines the comic world, what it does to the conventions of that. i guess thats just for people who know about that stuff though
i guess im mainly saying im a believer that there is generally something interesting about films like this and that its not the vacuous shell you describe, i cant really argue with you about it till i see it though so huh.
i dunno, i dont disagree that there is a lot of vacuous rubbish out there and that itd be cool if more people took the interest in politics that they take in strictly come dancing, i think relatively speaking film is probably in better health with regard to that sorta thing than it has been for a while though...
Also:
Remember this is BATMAN. Based on a comic strip. Based on THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E134bWCZ6A4
I wish so much they would go back to this.
why
The batman films are
disappointingly serious. It needs a good injection of camp, and pow. And bam.
remember what happened last time they tried that
http://medias.fluctuat.net/films/7/0/7048/batman-et-robin/photos/47220-george-clooney.jpg
also
http://thecia.com.au/reviews/b/images/batman-and-robin-6.jpg
Baudrillard and Zizek probably have something to say about
that feeling. probably something to do with orgasms and implosions.
Imploding orgasms?
Penis hoover?
see:
clapping at bad bands.
i don't really understand
there are far worse things to rail against.
i'm not saying 'don't analyse the experience' but culturally, i think if you were going to locate a vacuum, i'm not sure it would be in film. film's quite good right now.
The bit I saw last night was underwhelming
The soundtracking isn't very consistent, and Christian Bale's Batman voice (and teeth) are awful. It was a great film, especially in comparison to most summer blockbusters, but not quite the life-changing, genre-defining telling of a morally rooted crime film that it's being built up to be.
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf5wlXR9q3c
OMG
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Shit film, shit fans.
heath ledger is a rly good joker huh
just a dead guy.
fuck him.
he was rly good as the joker though huh
Yeah, he sure had the last laugh
I'm sure that people were saying this about Star Wars back in the day.
I'm not saying that the two are comparible like.
Indeed
particularly as Star Wars blows.
batman out of the water.
(in Cinematic terms not including The Dark Knight which I'm seeing tomorrow)
Meh
its hardly princess di's funeral is it?
You know how some people have the idea
that DiS is full of pretentious cunts who enjoy nothing more than a good sneer? This is the reason why.
It is a film. A film that many people were looking forward to, and I'd wager many enjoyed watching. Grow up.
Although
I do agree that whooping and cheering at the cinema is a tad odd.
I would agree with you
But I'm currently atoning for enjoying the Dark Knight by whipping myself and watching an Azerbaijani film about backstreet abortion
I hear Michael Bay has just secured the rights
to the Hollywood remake
is that the one with the
rabbit and magician animation before the film?
You know how some people have the idea
that DiS is full of mouthy know-nothing kids who enjoy nothing more than a good sneer? This is the reason why.
It is a film. A film that many people will be mystified by the appeal of, and I'd wager that many people would really rather didn't exist. Grow up.
*exploding irony meter
sends shrapnel flying*
Really clever
I'm just surprised that you did end it with a nice big kiss-off to show how much you're above this sort of thing and how little it really concerns you.
Christ knows what it is you are searching for, or indeed if you are searching for anything. It really isn't surprising that you don't find it in popular culture though, or all that clever or interesting to point it out.
Stop directing your ire at me please.
There is nothing wrong with what I said. I said I don't like Batman and that I find many mass culture events like film blockbusters weird.
If there's anything out of order going on, it's you calling me a "sneering pretentious cunt", was it?
Go and learn some manners, moron.
x
There it is!
I didn't call you a cunt, but I probably should have.
This isn't about you not liking Batman though, is it? This is about you living in a world of make believe where people's investment in popular culture is some new and horrifying experience. Prior to the invention of cinema, everyone went to see Russian ballets and no-one cared for gossip.
Maybe I don't understand the point you're making, and you definitely don't seem to understand mine. And as far as the manners advice goes, read into "glass houses". I've seen you make some pretty odious posts for no apparent reason in the past.
He's probably going to call you a facist now
He lurves that one
"prior to the invention of cinema"
Things didn't have worldwide synchronized releases or billboard campaigns or digital marketeers making sure that everywhere people look, they repeatedly have imagery drummed into them. I don't see how you can really deny that things like massive film releases and product launches and such have grown to replace things like religious festivals as public events. Where everyone gets together and gets excited and chats about it all for weeks.
And if you didn't have such a huge stick up your ass, you might not have assumed that I would be adverse to the idea of thinking about how mass culture evolved and is connected to the past.
If you wanted to have a conversation about it, fine. But you started off by calling me a sneering pretentious cunt. And if you think you didn't you badly miscalculated. So what did you expect exactly? Best fwends?
I didn't call you that before
I can see how you inferred it though. Just for clarity, I am calling you one now.
But whilst we are inferring things, can you not see how one could very easily infer that your criticism of the phenomena you describe is inherently classist? For the most part, what sort of people enjoy and revel in the cultural phenomena you have described. I don't think I massively miscalculated when, upon reading your post, I sensed pretension and judgement.
Well, you're being massively judgemental and rude!
So, fuck off, basically.
You're really funny
You're not.
And you misuse the word 'pretentious'.
Pretentious:
adj. attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.
Nope, thats pretty much what I was going for.
Well you were wrong!
I'd say you were judgemental and sloppy in your interpretation of my argument.. You filled in the blanks unkindly, basically, and ended up willfully misunderstood what I was trying to say... which, as it turns out, you basically agree with.
And that spat out a stream of offensive crap in my direction for what amounts to not liking the delivery of it.
Wow, this semantic bullshit really amazing fun. I love the internet.
Perhaps I had to fill the blanks in your argument
because it was sloppily constructed and absolutely riddled with them?
It's a messageboard not a dissertation.
It's for conversation not presentation of a fully fledged dissection of the subject at hand.
True
But why get all flustered when someone points out flaws, holes or misgivings then?
Read what you said!
It was horrible!
John
Although I have since called you a cunt, I did not in my initial post. I'm sure you've seen the multitude of threads that crop up from time to time in which people deride DiS for being (and to make it absolutely obvious this time, I'll use quotation marks) "full of prentious cunts". This sort of thread, for better or for worse, is one of the reasons people think this.
Whether or not they are right and if it actually matters is a different discussion. And as I've pointed out, you've said some horrible things in this thread and I've seen you make horrible and unprovoked comments in other threads. Judge not and all that.
Is this where we hug?
xxx
The main point I was trying to make
relates to a feeling of emptiness when relating to mass culture. And the idea that mass culture is called that for a reason - it's the things that everyone knows about, and it's one of the mainstays of life in this country.
That's it. And I'm 100% certain I'm not alone on this, and I'm 100% certain there is nothing pretentious about saying that.
No, there isn't.
And as an idea, I can relate to and understand that. Perhaps I'm being rude, judgemental and a cunt in saying so, but I think you communicated this fair and apt point in a very pretentious way and am I'm 100% certain I'm not alone in that.
So
A fair and apt point with pretentious delivery? I can live with that.
So
My initial post which so caught your ire stands then. This thread could very well be the sort of reason people think DiS is full of pretentious cunts.
Christ All-fucking-mighty.
OH DUDE
If you clearly infer that some is a pretentious cunt who enjoys nothing more than a good sneer, expect a fucking response.
I did
And while we are being pedantic, I can only imply and not infer anything. You inferred it, and we could argue endlessly over how justifiable that is.
Oh lets!!!!!
<3 day off.
Then again, I could go and swim.
Yeah, maybe that.
Definitely
Why would many people wish it didn't exist?
It's just a film. I imagine many people wish poverty didn't exist. Why would someone waste such ire on a film?
I'll take that wager matey boy, I'll have your eyes out
heath ledger was a rly good joker huh
The same way that my mum wishes the World Cup
doesn't exist. Because she has to put up with it, and she can't stand football.
WIN
its not really the same
stuff like the dark knight is good for the film industry as a whole, imagine the money and interest its generating and its not like youre saying you dont like films at all you just seem to be objecting to this particular type of film, as an aside id say having seen it now id say your criticisms are fairly wide of the mark
if you dont like it so much you shouldnt go youre contributing by being there
big up
for the film industry!
but, you know, being someone who hasn't seen it, I'd rather not spend my weekend surrounded by people who CANNOT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. Have I really underestimated the company I keep this badly, cause they were banging on about it like it was possibly the most incredible thing that they had ever seen.
I'm sure it wasn't. They've just got the batman bug. It will pass, I guess.
>:(
These are thoughts arising from having gone to see it though. I thought it might be good. Who knows?
Suggesting ignoring things if you don't liek them is never, ever a good argument tactic. Like me saying back to you - "if you don't like my thread, don't post in it". It's just massively flawed because of course you're going to engage with it if you want to. Which is what I did.
I went to see the film, was entertained, then had a strange sensation of dissatisfaction and started a threa don here about it.
Which was, of course, a mistake.
thats not really what im saying though
the general thrust of what youre saying in this thread seems to be that the 'blockbuster' is an inevitable and unpleasant fact of life these days (correct me if thats wrong) a hollow experience or whatever
now what im suggesting to you is that if you already know this why would you continue subjecting yourself to them, is it so you can feel vindicated, if you find these things that bad then dont go, youre contributing by being there take yourself to something else, support a local independent cinema, maybe you didnt already know this idk
what is quite interesting i think is that of the 4 of these film franchises you mention in yr original post the last 2 films of 2 of them have sunk without trace which would suggest people are more discerning than you might imagine
the dark knight was pretty good i thought, it aint a work of art or anything but it had stabs at depth, reasonably interesting if cartoonized topical themes and a few great performances and a good enough story, it was a pretty effective and enjoyable genre film rly
maybe you didnt already know you felt like this about these films
is what i mean at the end of the 2nd paragraph
Thats just it though
It kind of is a work of art. A work of art that may well leave some people empty. A work of art that is the product of our age. But not a work of art that is new in its nature or intentions.
It's not a work of art.
But what is art eh
MUHAHAHAHAHA
And this is why I'm right.
wrong.
error.
door.
get out.
Before we debate what art is
can we sort out which is right; religion or science?
Scientology of course.
The only definition of art that I find useful
is that it is something that is perceived of as primarily art by it's creator.
That's not the case here. This is primarily a commercial film product.
That a high degree of skill was engaged is it's creation is not in question. That it was conceived and created to be a work of art is just not the case.
Unless you want to engage the nebulous usage of art as in "the arts", in which case, film, literature, theatre and dance etc are included.
This is another can of kettles of fish and worms, so I'm getting out while the getting is gone.
*something that is perceived of primarily as art by it's creator.
Or:
You could say that applies equally as - something that is perceived of primarily as art by it's audience, if you wanted.
That's not the case here either.
I'm trying hard not to get caught up too much in this
but isn't that definition somewhat tautological?
In fact, no, don't answer
Neither of us need that
Too late.
But I defused it! Look.
VVV
Yes.
I'm trying hard not to get caught up in it too. Let's do this one another time. Because even if we pretty much squabbled for ages, I like talking about these things online sometimes.
God knows why.
I don't blame you.
For various reasons, I don't find that definiton useful (mainly owing to the fact that truly knowing someone's motivations is impossible) but will concede I can't come up with a better or tighter definition.
that's a circular definition, since it appeals to 'art' as the basis for its definition of 'art'
perhaps a better way of saying a similar thing is that a piece of art is a work that has been given meaning - semantic content - by its creator. So when Delacroix painted 'The Women of Algiers', he created a work of art; but when he painted his front room, he did not. When Public Enemy put the sound of a celldoor shutting at the beginning of 'Black Steel in the hour of chaos', it was part of a work of art; a cell door closing unrecorded in San Quentin is not.
Note that neither the audience, nor anyone else beyond the artist, has to be fully aware of that work's meaning for the definition to hold.
Even if you don't enjoy the film itself
the hysteria that surrounds it and public/media attitude to it as an event can still be fascinating. I'm sure had someone not watched the film and made comments about how overhyped and bizarre the reaction to the film was, there would have been plenty lining up to say 'you can't comment unless you've seen the film'.
This is what the UK must have felt like
when the US engaged in WWII.
yeah look
im not disputing brainlove's right to analyse his experience, and the general reaction to the whole this is interesting i agree, thats fair enough, i just disagree with what he's saying about these things being a vacuous experience
John-Brainlove is a really good Joker.
>:D
I agree with almost all of what John's saying here
(and throughout the thread)
your standpoint has been noted
I assumed it would be
^5
Me too
Shame it's not real eh
For Batman can't save you now!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
They're talking about you on Quietus
"In truth The Dark Knight is very good for a blockbuster, inventive and never boring, but short on emotion and hardly the Guernica it’s being hyped up as."
http://www.thequietus.com/articles/the-dark-knight-of-the-soul
does anyone else reading this thread
think John Brainlove's turning into a more coherent version of prole?
Maybe
LET'S CUT OPEN HIS HEAD AND SEE IF THEY HAVE THE SAME BRAIN
HAHAHAHAHAHA
(/o\8-(
What's prole's defining characteristic that makes you say this?
That he complains about everything that isn't to do with either Chas 'n' Dave, Joe Meek, Suede or Steptoe and Son?
He is always mentioning Steptoe and Son.