overblown or the best thing ever?
i just find so much of this genre quite overblown and far too dramatic. im sure most of you wont agree with me, but this music either grabs you or it doesnt.
im generalising to a huge extent, but it seems to be one of the most formulaic forms of music circulating at the moment.
I agree with you bigman.
I do.
I agree
Big swirly instrumental post rock all sounds the same and is very very boring.
Isn't this...
... true for all genres - i.e. some is good, some if poor?
Can you give examples of the post rock wheat and the chaff?
it's bollocks
post is the new prog.
i said that the to a friend the other day
she didnt agree. but i think its true.
How do you mean though?
Do you mean post is the new prog in terms of they are essentially the same style of music, only under a different name?
If that is what you mean, I would disagree - prog was much more pompous, overblown and self indulgent. Post is more minimal and beautiful.
I really like many bands that are dubbed 'post rock' - Slint, Mogwai, Godspeed, Sigur Ros, Explosions in the Sky etc. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing these bands have in common with prog bands (Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Rush, Gentle Giant and King Crimson) is song length...
otherwise, surely I'd love prog. I don't.
I absolutely love slint
and I wouldnt say they sound anything like GYBE (who im not particularly fond of). Thats a problem with categorisation. But GYBE and Sigur Ros aren't what I'd call minimalist bands. Everything just seems so stuffed to the gills. I think Vini Reilly does a much finer example of minimalist instrumental music (just my personal preference). So many of GYBE's and Sigur Ros' songs just seem to go: quiet, quiet, loud, dramatic cresendo, end.
GY!BE and sigur ros
are easy to criticise and are probably the most common formulaic boring post rock bands (i still love them) so judging most post rock on this is pretty stupid.
Well...
I wasn't saying that Slint sound anything like GYBE or Sigur Ros - I was simpl;y saying that I like them all.
I also wasn't saying that bands like GYBE or Sigur Ros are minimalists - I was merely saying that IN GENERAL, Post rock is more minimal the prog. A sweeping generalisation I know, and I'm regretting it, believe me!
I agree that many of Sigur Ros and GYBE songs go quiet,quiet, loud, dramatic crescendo, end. This is often levelled as a criticism amongst these bands but I really don;t see how you can use it in this way - i.e. How is that a criticism?
I don't hear people criticising the Beatles (for example, but you could substitute them for about 90% of bands) because most of their songs go verse, chorus, verse, chorus, middle 8, chorus, end.
with the beatles
there are a few minor differences.
incredible lyrics.
the most amazing pop hooks ever devised.
absolutely
I really love the Beatles. That's why I said you can exchange them with pretty much any band that uses the traditional song structure.
What I'm saying is that it's not used as a criticism for any of the bands that employ the verse-chorus-verse structure.
Therefore, structure should not be used as a criticism of post rock bands.
I know what you
mean. Of course, its an observation. But when the music hangs its impact and much of its emotional content purely on structure then it becomes boring and formulaic. For the beatles, verse-chorus-verse compostion was merely a vehicle for their hooks, melodies and lyrics.
That seems
fair enough.
I guess for me, the structure of Sigur Ros, GYBE may be predictable, but it doesn't lessen the emotional experience for me, in the same way that a predictable Beatles song structure doesn't.
Different folks...
NO
it's really not
yes it really is.
NO
not all of it
and this is a criticism i used to hate people using, but a lot of post-rock is just incredibly self indulgent. it is!
it really is
except i like prog, post rock isn't load or fast enough. or catchy, or interesting...
It is all of these things
i could give examples but i wont
well rascallion
You have just contradicted the idea that post = prog.
bigmanwithagun - can you explain why you think that some post rock is self-indulgent please?
it's self indulgent
because it places importance on 'ooh look how minimal this is' just like prog did with maximalism.
How
is that self-indulgent?
IN any case, I would disgaree with you - the post rock I like places importance on melody and emotion.
it's the emotion
that makes it self-indulgent really.
i find so much of it mindnumbingly pretentious. :/
What?
So are you saying that music that makes you feel emotion is self-indulgent???
Isn't the whole point of music to make people feel emotion?
i should have put in in quote marks
it's the intentional "emotion" in the music that i find self important. it's like "we'll have a minute of near silence and then build up the guitars and everyone will weep with joy".
obviously such a formulaic approach isn't completely across the board, but there's a fuckload of bands that do this.
Just as...
there arew a fuckload of bands who do the verse-chorus-verse thing.
A band can still be good if it uses a formulaic structure.
verse-chorus-verse is completely different though
a three minute pop song is a long way from a 15 minute instrumental piece.
of course....
but my point is that I think it's unfair that 'post rock' bands get criticised for formulaic structures when the vast majority of rock bands use the verse-chorus-verse structure and nobody bats an eyelid.
so your problem with post rock
is that it's kitsch? i.e. it intends to convey an emotion or an image before it's even written?
Look how minimal this is?
LOLmania
post is the new prog
because it involves self important dour blokes with 'rockist' attitudes that will soon drown in their own sea of self-indulgency.
What is
a 'rockist' attitude?
it's that
same kind of boorish opinion that U2 fans have that leads to Four Tet being booed by smug EITS fans.
Well...
I was at the show in Hammersmith and I certainly didn't boo Four Tet - he's great.
Those boo'ers are just narrow minded fools, it has nothing to do with the fact they like post rock.
There are many 'post rock' type bands who embrace other genres - 65DoS, the Berg Sans Nipple, etc.
i wasn't generalising completely
but there's an awful lot of narrow minded fools around post rock from my experience.
i dont like making
criticisms that have nothing to do with the music, but post-rock fans seem to be a very insular bunch. musically that is.
i thought four tet were post rock
erm, no
it's one bloke who makes intrumental hiphop on a laptop.
dialogue sounds post-rocky
i'm listening to it now and it definitely sounds post-rocky
i just dont like instrumental
or even a lot of music with lyrics, that pushes you really strongly in one direction. bands like gybe or sigur ros, to me, dont create an evocative, emotional soundscape in the way that a band like MBV can.
noise music
surely as ridiculous as prog?
not to me!
you can't completely dismiss prog
not all prog bands were Yes, and not all noise bands are An Albatross.
you can't completely dissmiss post-rock
not all post rock bands are EITS, sigur ros, mogwai or GY!BE
i'm not
i love slint and even a bit of mogwai occasionally.
it's the copyists that numb my mind.
It's too easy
to criticise a band without lyrics for using a quiet-loud formula. To follow that criticism through to its logical conclusion every indie pop band ever should also get hammered for using a verse chorus structure. The lack of lyrics just make structural similarities more obvious.
....yes
should i not criticise something which is so incredibly obvious? its bores me so.
and i think that is
an overly simplistic analogy
how do you propose
song structure is changed. just like books or whatever, there are only so many structures available without being shit/incomprehensible. it's just a case of doing something interesting with what's available to you.
It's like saying all paintings are bad because they are painted with paint.
not really!
as ive said before, i just find that bands like Sigur Ros and GYBE *rely* on the song's structure to embelish it with a sense of emotion that isnt already present. and when you know exactly how that change is going to take place before you've even listened to the song, then it becomes a very boring process indeed. its that bloody big crescendo that pisses me off. id rather something a little more understated instead of forcing me to observe it in a very dicatorial way. there i said it!
dictatorial
provacative
ummm
perhaps this is a silly question? but if the emotion of essentially lyric-less songs doesn't come from the lyrics, where else is it going to come from other than the dynamics and instrumentation?
not really true is it?
F#a# has no large crecendos until the last song. Lift your skinny fists has one midway in the first song and a couple of small ones later on. I know these albums perfectly and what you are suggesting mainly isn't true. YES.
Yes
I agree with you 100%.
Post rock is like a snickers bar, all the parts that make it up are great; kraut rock, shoegaze, electronica, prog (well maybe not prog). But the end result is disappointing.
Most post-rock is dreary, self indulgent dross. With the exception of a few artists. So many bands go for the huge, climatic, overblown sound but ultimately ends up empty and uninteresting.
I like the dirty three though.
are redjetson and oceansize
post-rock?
some post rock
is great. See jaga jazzist and YMSS.
some is not, and can be a bit repetitive and dull. See explosions in the sky.
Some points
'Most post-rock is dreary, self indulgent dross. With the exception of a few artists'.
This comment is just a lazy generalisation. If your not keen on a style of music your unlikely to go out of your way to find out about the interesting less predictable bands that brake the moulds and stereotypes.
As a genre I love post-rock but many of it's figure head bands I'm not actually that keen on, and IMO, are not the most interesting. GSYBE, Sigur Ross and Mogwai are probably some of my least favorites groups. However, outside of this 'holy trinity' there are loads of lesser known groups making innovative and exciting music e.g polmo polpo, the boxhead ensemble, rachels, brokeback, The Wind Up Bird, early Windsor for the Derby, Tarentel, Euphone, Mice Parade, Jeniferever etc.
Also, there are plenty of seminal postrocks bands that don't rely on the quiet loud approach for instance Tortoise or Bark Psychosis. Also the quiet loud dynamic has been used by grunge and mainstream alt rock as well eg. Pixies, Nirvana (on some tracks).
i was going a bit far
with most. i agree almost entirely with your post. i guess i did really mean the most popular bunch at the moment. i love jeniferever and tarentel btw
i prefer
post post rock.
Largely I agree
But I do have one word of rebuttal:
TORTOISE
I do love Mogwai.
But I go for a fair amount of 'new post-rock' - 65days, YMSS, Explosions In The Sky, Mono, Jeniferever... I'm not the biggest fan of GYBE though.
That said, two of my favourite all time bands are Slint and Tortoise.
Post Hardcore is where its at right now!
like totally.
But I do have one word of rebuttal:
Believe.
What I love most about em is if you look at the memebers tattoos underneath the ties and tank tops. They did rage, punk, hardcore and whatever. But they realised masterful structural, chordal, rhythmic concerns were the way forward.
Listen to Standards, then TNT, than all the others and realise why they are awesome.
I wouldn't even call them post-rock. they ain't a genre band. They're just Tortoise.
oh deary dear
More guff is spoken about post-rock than any other genre, I reckons.
The original definition of post-rock (by Simon Reynolds in The Wire) applied to bands like Disco Inferno, Bark Psychosis and late Talk Talk. Those sorts of bands have ended up influencing people like Hood, but very few of the bands commonly called 'post-rock' today sound anything like that sort of stuff. The only band I can think of who were influenced by that group of bands who're commonly referred to as post-rock now are Epic45.
In fact, a lot of bands commonly called post-rock rely heavily on riffs (a lot of Mogwai, Mono)- and Reynolds expressly stated that post-rock shunned riffs.
It's this second school of post-rock that's come to define the genre though, and it's my belief that it's just like music in general: there are an awful lot of dull bands and a few very good ones. And there are lots of bands who're sometimes dull and sometimes good.
And as with other genres, many of the best bands can't be described merely as 'post rock'. Godspeed are almost neo-classical and dabble in field recording, Silver Mt.Zion have used chamber music, American folk and Jewish music as building blocks and Jaga Jazzist bring in electronica, jazz and- yes- prog.
My interest in 'post-rock' has actually resulted in me going further and looking at avant-rock. People like Jackie O-Motherfucker, Volcano the Bear, Sunburned Hand of the Man, Vibracathedral Orchestra. These groups don't sound alike but share a similar spirit: they deconstruct, reconstruct and do whatever the hell they like to 'rock' music, largely free of classification. And they make some of the best and most interesting music on the planet. Maybe they're the true 'post-rock'. But I wouldn't really want to put that burden on them.
and here's...
...my list of bands who aren't so formulaicly post-rock. I don't like all of them, but they're doing something different:
The Exploits of Elaine: I'll express an interest- this is my band. We're influenced by a hell of a lot of non post-rock stuff (doom metal, kraut) and try to make our stuff as emotive as possible. Our songs are typically quite short and to the point.
www.myspace.com/theexploitsofelaine
65*daysofstatic: I'm not their biggest fan, but their marriage of electronica and metally post-rock is proving rather popular with the kids.
Youthmovie Soundtrack Strategies: Bloody marvellous band. Hardcore, math-rock and post-rock in a lovely package.
www.ymss.org.uk
Redjetson: Songs! Like a collision between Explosions In The Sky, Interpol and Low. Dark as anything.
www.redjetson.co.uk
Any band on Constellation records. They're are brilliant and none of them are conventional post-rock.
Agh fuck it, there's loads.
I like lots of bands that people would deem post rock
but I don't think they are. It's a lazy label - I find that if there are no vocals on an album, people I know automatically assume it's post rock, even though it's not (see four tet)
It's an argument that will never be resolved.
Some one I know came up with a great abreviation for predicatable post rock bands. GPRS - Genric post rock shite...
Dialogue is a post rock album
it is
I have been listening
to "post rock" music for years and have amassed quite a collection, and when in the right mood it can blow me away a treat. I would say that the music I have picked up has at times surprised the listener and would disagree completely that these bands rely on quiet/loud or big crescendos. I have heard some bands do this, but they are well in the minority, and most bands I know in this genre attempt, and most often succeed, in bringing something of their own to the music.
genres eh
Can't live with em, can't live without em.
Somedays I even think I know what post rock is ...
Mogwai / Explosions In The Sky (but aparently there's some definition from awhile back that's says no).
So MONO ? Yeah I guess.
Hows about GRAILS ? Red Sparowes ?
And if your gonna include 65daysOf...
how about 3movements ?
And how about newer bands like Loss Of A Child, or purge ?
Me I'm just a NONemo
EMO - now there's a generic bland genre!
post rock is a gateway
it branches off into, and incorporates so many influences. Its partly responsible for my interest in ambient music, electronica, some jazz, experimental music, contemporary classical etc.
labradford
cul de sac
stars of the lid
rachels
Threnobody ensemble
all the chicago underground groups
oval